7 broken spokes later... grabbing freehub !!

[!TREK4ME!]

Hey Guys,
I have been wandering why I was breaking spokes, left and right, everytime just about, I went riding. Thought it was my big butt, but I think I have figured out why I'm replacing the 7th broken spoke on the drive side of my back wheel.
I replaced the spoke after removing the cassette and then replaced the cassette and noticed that the cassette was grabbing when pedaling backwards and the chain going slack. Upon closer inspection I noticed that the wheel was grabbing at a certain point when spinning causing the spokes to break on the drive side. Thought it was the axle bearings, but I have regreased them and have them adjusted smoothly.
Does this mean I need a new freehub?? or can it be fixed??

Thanks,
PJ

[nfmisso]

Typically, if you break two spokes, it is time to rebuild the whole wheel with new spokes and nipples.

Regarding your freehub issue - remove it , then flush it with solvent followed by lubricating it with very light oil. The mechanism does not work with grease.

[!TREK4ME!]

Thanks for the help !!
OK-- I'm going to get some bigger(stronger spokes) for the rebuild.
Do spokes just get old and break, because this bike has seen very little riding since 1996(garage kept)??... that is until I got it a few months ago!!

I sprayed some teflon lube in the backside of the freehub and it seems to be loosening up some...
How do you remove the freehub?... never done this before. Any special tools??

Thanks,
PJ

[1FJEF]

(11-02-2013, 12:01 AM)nfmisso Wrote:  Regarding your freehub issue - remove it , then flush it with solvent followed by lubricating it with very light oil. The mechanism does not work with grease.

I had not heard that before.

[nfmisso]

(11-02-2013, 03:05 PM)1FJEF Wrote:  

(11-02-2013, 12:01 AM)nfmisso Wrote:  Regarding your freehub issue - remove it , then flush it with solvent followed by lubricating it with very light oil. The mechanism does not work with grease.

I had not heard that before.

There are fine springs and pawls inside a freewheel/freehub; grease causes them to stick, resulting in not disengaging when they should (think fixie) or not engaging when they should (think no go).

[!TREK4ME!]

Hey again Guys,
Just an update... up to the 8th spoke(36 spoke wheel). I was just grabbing the spokes and lightly checking the tension when another went, "Ping".
Replaced that one for now, but have a spoke tension meter on order and I'm looking forward to getting this problem solved, hopefully.
I have never done a full spoke replacement before, or a wheel build.
Is there anything that I should know or is it just a case of replacing one spoke at a time, tighten slightly and then go to the next and so on, until they are all replaced, then spoke tension as required, then true??
Should I start at the drive side and then to the non-drive or alternate sides??
Just need a little direction, I guess??
Thanks,
PJ

[nfmisso]

My first; I replaced one spoke at a time, tensioned and trued as best as I could, then took it to a shop.

Next I built a truing stand and built the wheels up from scratch, then a 2nd much better truing stand:
http://forums.bikeride.com/thread-3834.html

I find it much much easier to start from scratch than to replace one at a time.

Tension meters - never had one, the frequency of the pinging is more accurate than a tension meter. For Andriod, you can download FreqenSee and True Tone Apps for free. There are several charts on the 'net listing frequencies for different length spokes and tensions.

When building a wheel follow:
http://sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html#preparation

Important when lacing - keep the amount of thread showing on every spoke the same within less than a ¼ turn. This will make things MUCH easier later.

Bring the tension up evenly; no more than 1 turn at a time. I do this on my stand.

Drive side tension will be higher than non drive side.

Final steps are: tension, true, stress relieve, true, stress relieve, true, stress relieve, true, stress relieve, until no more truing is required after stress relief.

± 0.005" is a reasonable and attainable goal for truing, and will allow the brake pads to be very close the rims for maximum performance.

[!TREK4ME!]

Awesome !!... This will help a lot !!... Thanks !!!
Is there a place where I can purchase reasonably priced spokes and is there a difference in quality, other than the size??

[Joe_W]

For spokes Nigel likes Whelsmith, I like DT or Sapim - it depends where you are and what is available. If you go with one of the big brands you cannot go wrong.

For a rear wheel I try to get the drive side tension as homogenous as possible, the non drive side has to follow. Tension has to be as high as possible, I find it hard to overtension a (modern!) rim - the old ones were weak and could end up potato-chipped.

[nfmisso]

As Joe notes, I like Wheelsmith SS14 spokes for most applications, which I purchase through Amazon.

[!TREK4ME!]

Awesome !!... Thanks Guys !!!
I'm assuming that the spokes on the drive side are the same length as on the non-drive side on a offset rear wheel, right??
Also, how do you know what size(guage) spoke you have and what size(guage) spoke would be best for my big butt(application)?? On this bike, I'm planning on using it for touring with a one wheel trailer. I have been using it locally to get dog food(50lb bag) and groceries. So the rear spokes are getting a good workout. I sure am glad I'm having this problem now, instead of a couple hundred miles from home.
As it looks, I guess I'm going to have to put bigger spokes in my off road MTB rear wheel too. Broke one yesterday on the drive side.
I can't quite figure, but I must be getting stronger at pedaling, because the weight is coming off... That's what I would like to think, anyways...
Thanks again,
PJ

[nfmisso]

different lengths on each side at the rear - measure hub and rim - or find the data online - then use SPOCALC or similar to determine the lengths.

On HD applications; I use Wheelsmith DH13 spokes, which are about 2½X the price of SS14.

[1FJEF]

(11-04-2013, 12:59 PM)!TREK4ME! Wrote:  A I have been using it locally to get dog food (50lb bag) and groceries.

Dude, are you putting 50lbs on the bike or the trailer? how much do you weigh? I'm 260-285 & no factory wheel, with a rim narrower than 32mm, I've ever ridden can handle my weight. Custom hand made, yes, factory, no. After 5 rear wheels the light bulb went on & I got it, cheap wheels, if it's got less than 36 spokes, forget it. It it's narrower than 32mm forget it.
nfmisso is an engineer, so he makes wheel building sound easy, but he's not an average type person, lol.

[nfmisso]

(11-04-2013, 05:16 PM)1FJEF Wrote:  Dude, are you putting 50lbs on the bike or the trailer? how much do you weigh? I'm 260-285 & no factory wheel, with a rim narrower than 32mm, I've ever ridden can handle my weight. Custom hand made, yes, factory, no. After 5 rear wheels the light bulb went on & I got it, cheap wheels, if it's got less than 36 spokes, forget it. It it's narrower than 32mm forget it.

I am a bit heavier than Jeff - and build my own wheels.

I am running 32-630 on my World Tourist; 36 DH13 spokes, Wienmann DM19 rim.
37-590 on my SR; 40 SS14 spokes, Sun CR18 rim.
40-559 on my GT; 36 DH13 spokes, Alex Adventurer rim.

Our tandem has 35-622 (actually 35mm wide by 40mm tall); 40 SS14 spokes with Dyad rims.

[!TREK4ME!]

Well it looks like I have 2.0mm spokes in the rear bike wheels above. The off road MTB has 32 and the touring bike has 36 spokes.
Is just replacing the spokes of the same size going to give me any more strength or should I go with the 2.3mm(13 gauge) spokes?? Shoot, I would go 12 guage if I could, but I think I read somewhere that the hub spoke hole is normally 2.6mm and the 12 guage spoke is 2.67mm.
What about the rims... are they strong enough for bigger spokes or is this part of the problem too??
Man... I hate being a big guy, sometimes !!
Just to let you guys know what you are dealing with... I'm just shy of 6'-4" and weigh 270 the last time I looked. If you were to look at me, you would think I weigh less. I always win the "Guess Your Weight" games at the Fairs and Carnivals. It would be nice to get another 30-40lbs off though(usually what they miss my weight by).

[1FJEF]

Yeah, 270 need a well made hand build, or frequent visits to Amazon.com
I would replace the 32 spoke wheel.

[!TREK4ME!]

(11-04-2013, 05:16 PM)1FJEF Wrote:  

(11-04-2013, 12:59 PM)!TREK4ME! Wrote:  A I have been using it locally to get dog food (50lb bag) and groceries.

Dude, are you putting 50lbs on the bike or the trailer? how much do you weigh? I'm 260-285 & no factory wheel, with a rim narrower than 32mm, I've ever ridden can handle my weight. Custom hand made, yes, factory, no. After 5 rear wheels the light bulb went on & I got it, cheap wheels, if it's got less than 36 spokes, forget it. It it's narrower than 32mm forget it.
nfmisso is an engineer, so he makes wheel building sound easy, but he's not an average type person, lol.

It goes on the trailer, so I would guess that half that weight, including half the trailer weight(18lbs) is on the back wheel... so, an extra 34lbs plus my weight distributed on the bike.
Actually this is the second time I have broke one using the trailer, probably out of 30 times. The other spoke breaks have been when I was starting out at a light or stop sign, after wheelstanding. I'm not cranking hard at all, just an easy on the seat rolling start(ping !!). Spokes always break at the hub and mostly on the drive side.

[!TREK4ME!]

Just checked....
The touring(grocery grabber) has 27mm wide aluminum rims with steel spokes(2.0mm-don't believe they are stainless), but have no signs of rust. Joytech hubs with KIN LIN 1.5 rims.
The off road MTB has 21mm double wall aluminum rims with aluminum spokes(2.0mm). Maverick rims w/ shimano hubs made by Bontrager.
Are there any factory built 26" 135mm rear spacing wheels strong enough for my application??

[nfmisso]

Aluminum spokes - not likely.

no factory built wheels that I am aware of - I always consider factory built wheels as ready to be finished: tension, true, stress relieve, true, stress relieve, true, stress relieve, true, stress relieve, until no more truing required.

For 135mm: Wheelmaster 40H hub, Velocity Aeroheat 26" 40 h Blk Ano/Sil Sided rim, Wheelsmith SS14 spokes 252 (non drive) and 250 (drive side) mm, Wheelsmith 12mm nickel plated brass nipples.

[!TREK4ME!]

[quote='nfmisso' pid='29843' dateline='1383611596']
Aluminum spokes - not likely.

Put a magnet up to them... didn't feel like they were pulling to the magnet like the other spokes... must be SS ??, but are painted black.

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You don't think I could get these wheels to work with my application with some bigger spokes??