Wheel spokes/nipples truing

[Rama Owhl]

Oil or grease or wd-40?

How effective is truing lateral with only brake pads as guides?

For only truing lateral should tire be off?

And always small turns?

Better to always true nipples pointing up or down?

[Joe_W]

(06-14-2011, 01:00 AM)Rama Owhl Wrote:  Oil or grease or wd-40?

I use a light oil on the spoke nipples

Quote:How effective is truing lateral with only brake pads as guides?

I wouldn't do this, it could work in a hassle but you don't have too much space when you are working with the wheel in the frame

Quote:For only truing lateral should tire be off?

If you only true: no real need. If you need to retention: absolutely, the inflated tyre will change spoke tensions

Quote:And always small turns?

sure

Quote:Better to always true nipples pointing up or down?

Makes no sense.

Get a good guide to wheelbuilding, eg. Roger Musson's book http://www.wheelpro.co.uk take your time and don't hurry.

[Rama Owhl]

I guess to further elucidate the spoke nipple question: when truing people warn about adjusting spoke nipples upside doen because you have to turn them counter clockwise. So why not change them onky when they are right side up?

[Joe_W]

(06-14-2011, 09:10 AM)Rama Owhl Wrote:  I guess to further elucidate the spoke nipple question: when truing people warn about adjusting spoke nipples upside doen because you have to turn them counter clockwise. So why not change them onky when they are right side up?

I think that this is mostly a "I'm used to this way" question. On a truing stand it makes sense to work on the lower spokes the way it is set up: It should sit on a work bench, so the bottom part of the stand is about the correct height to work on. Other than that: no idea. See what comes natural to you. Mark the direction of the spoke wrench in which you have to turn to increase tension with a sharpie, then you'll always know which direction to turn.

[DaveM]

For most lateral truing, I don't see any reason you can't do this on a bike using the brake pads. If you're measuring run out in microns, sure. But for most of us...

It is recommend to reduce tire pressure when you true a wheel though you don't really need to remove the tire. The issue is that under pressure, the end of the turning nipples might cut through the rim strip and pop the tube.

The which-way to turn the nipple issue is a very common mistake when people first learn to true wheels. Once you practice a little, it won't matter whether you turn them at the top or bottom, your hands will know which way is which. But pay close attention at first, it is easy to get tighten/loosen confused as you spin the wheel around.

+1 to everything Joe_W said. WD-40 is really only good for freeing up stuck/corroded stuff. It is not a lubricant.

[nfmisso]

i found that my attempt to true a wheel on a bike only made it worse. So I built my cheapie truing stand ( http://forums.bikeride.com/thread-3155.html ).

With the dial indicator, it instantly tells you which way you are turning the spoke wrench, and as DaveM said; your hands quickly learn, even if your head sometimes second guesses....

Light oil; even a thinned oil (one with solvents that evaporate leaving very little oil behind).

[Rama Owhl]

(06-14-2011, 03:23 PM)nfmisso Wrote:  i found that my attempt to true a wheel on a bike only made it worse. So I built my cheapie truing stand ( http://forums.bikeride.com/thread-3155.html ).

With the dial indicator, it instantly tells you which way you are turning the spoke wrench, and as DaveM said; your hands quickly learn, even if your head sometimes second guesses....

Light oil; even a thinned oil (one with solvents that evaporate leaving very little oil behind).

Is fly flow oil decent enough for the spoke nipples?

[nfmisso]

sure; even vegetable oil is okay, except that it will turn rancid and stink.

[Rama Owhl]

Now the spoke nipples were severely rusted- no metal was showing at all. I took wd-40 and a wire brush and got them shiny new. I oiled the top part of the nipples, spun the tire thinking the force would help work the oil into them. However, i still think some are twisting the spokes. Did I oil wrong (or not work the oil in enough) or is it just time for it to go?

[Rama Owhl]

And now my tire popped this morning. Might be the spokes i tightened? Do i file them down?

[nfmisso]

what does the rim tape look like? Most likely that is the reason the tube popped.

the procedure is to put oil on the spokes, both ends, BEFORE they are built into a wheel.

Given that spokes are rusting, they are not stainless steel. You haven't given us the whole story on the bike, so I am not sure if the following is applicable or not.

* IF you are wanting to make the bike serviceable for many years or you want to learn about bicycle wheels; replace all of the spokes with Wheelsmith SS14 or similar 2.0mm straight gauge stainless steel spokes and 12mm nickel plated brass nipples. Rear wheels have different length spokes on each side, so remove one of each, measure so that you purchase the correct length.

* IF you are not interested in learning how to re-build wheels, and want the lowest cost approach that will be fine for a couple of years, just purchase a new low end wheel.

[Joe_W]

1) I use double butted spokes as the wheels are much stronger than when using plain gauge spokes.

2) Get a decent entry level wheel set, not a el-cheapo WallyMart one. For road bikes, Mavic Aksium is quite nice (I have those, equal tension, very round, very durable, albeit heavy). Fulcrum is also good, as is Shimano (except for the low amount of grease in some of the cheaper hubs... repack those soon). For off-road use: I don't know. Mavic should be good, too, Shimano also. Don't know too many other brands in that price range. Also note that a handbuilt set of wheels can be competitively priced: a small shop in Germany recently built the winning wheel set for a test in a bike rag (weight + aerodynamics for a normally spoked wheel, excluding "super weapons" like the Zipp 808, but those are > 4x as expensive)

[nfmisso]

(06-16-2011, 01:34 PM)Joe_W Wrote:  1) I use double butted spokes as the wheels are much stronger than when using plain gauge spokes.
......

Joe - this is NOT true. A 2.0-1.7-2.0 double butted spoke (like a Wheelsmith DB14) is no stronger than a 2.0 straight spoke (like a Wheelsmith SS14). In plane bending, the straight gauge spoke is actually stronger - but that is not applicable to bicycle wheels. Double butted spokes are also weaker in torsion, which comes into play when building a wheel due to spoke wind up.

Double butted spokes are fractionally lighter, fractionally more aerodynamic, result in a slightly more springing wheel, and cost a bit more.

For your first few wheel builds, stick with straight gauge because they are easier to work with. Later if you need to save a few milligrams, and have got wheel building down, by all means spend more money.

My qualifications: I am a Mechanical Design Engineer, with a few patents.

[Rama Owhl]

I am hoping i can save the tire for the summer than in the winter rebuild the wheel. Should i use the same wheel or get a new rim? And then how do i get the spokes/nipples off when the nipples are rusted on the spokes? Or other miscellanious wheel building advice?

[DaveM]

(06-16-2011, 02:10 PM)nfmisso Wrote:  

(06-16-2011, 01:34 PM)Joe_W Wrote:  1) I use double butted spokes as the wheels are much stronger than when using plain gauge spokes.
......

Joe - this is NOT true.

I don't want to wade into an engineering/materials debate. But I think the question is what is meant by a "stronger wheel". Butted spokes are not "stronger". But I believe the argument is that they do have more flex and thus are less likely to snap under a given load. Thus a more "flexible" wheel is "stronger". Can't really argue unless you define your terms...

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(06-16-2011, 04:57 PM)Rama Owhl Wrote:  I am hoping i can save the tire for the summer than in the winter rebuild the wheel. Should i use the same wheel or get a new rim? And then how do i get the spokes/nipples off when the nipples are rusted on the spokes? Or other miscellanious wheel building advice?

If most of the nipples are rusted in place and the wheel needs to be trued to be usable, you probably should just buy a new wheel. If just a couple nipples are seized, you can probably force them off and get a couple new nipples or worst case, cut the spoke and replace spoke and nipple. But if you do this for more than a few spokes, better just to buy a wheel.

If the rim is bent, same issues. You might be able to get just a rim cheaper than a wheel, but if there's spoke problems...

Check craigslist, etc. for a used bike with the same size wheels. Sometimes you can get a parts bike for the cost of one new part.

[Rama Owhl]

Well the rim looks good. Just the majority of the nipples are seized. So i just cut the spokes ti replace them? Cuz i need to measure the spokes as a whole to get proper fitting for new ones. I do want a long lasting wheel so if I buy a cheapy wheel it wont be for long.

[nfmisso]

(06-16-2011, 05:53 PM)Rama Owhl Wrote:  Well the rim looks good. Just the majority of the nipples are seized. So i just cut the spokes ti replace them? Cuz i need to measure the spokes as a whole to get proper fitting for new ones. I do want a long lasting wheel so if I buy a cheapy wheel it wont be for long.

Find one spoke on each side without a seized nipple to remove and measure. Get your new spokes and nipples, lightly oil both ends of the spoke, and install one at a time. First install the two that you removed for sizing, but leave them loose. Then cut a spoke and put the new one in - loose. Cut another, etc.

[Joe_W]

(06-16-2011, 02:10 PM)nfmisso Wrote:  

(06-16-2011, 01:34 PM)Joe_W Wrote:  1) I use double butted spokes as the wheels are much stronger than when using plain gauge spokes.
......

Joe - this is NOT true. A 2.0-1.7-2.0 double butted spoke (like a Wheelsmith DB14) is no stronger than a 2.0 straight spoke (like a Wheelsmith SS14). In plane bending, the straight gauge spoke is actually stronger - but that is not applicable to bicycle wheels. Double butted spokes are also weaker in torsion, which comes into play when building a wheel due to spoke wind up.

Double butted spokes are fractionally lighter, fractionally more aerodynamic, result in a slightly more springing wheel, and cost a bit more.

For your first few wheel builds, stick with straight gauge because they are easier to work with. Later if you need to save a few milligrams, and have got wheel building down, by all means spend more money.

My qualifications: I am a Mechanical Design Engineer, with a few patents.

OK, if you want to do it this way: I do have a PhD in Physics (nonlinear dynamics), but this does not matter at all.

Now on to the actual problem:
While it is true that plain gauge spokes are more resistant wrt. torsion, this is not applicable in wheel building. The torsion should be removed during the building process anyway (tip: stick little tape flags to the spoke and watch them during truing). So torsional strength is nothing we are interested in. What is important is fatigue. As you know, the weak points of the spoke are the elbow and the threads. The spoke breaks at the threads mainly if the torsion had not been removed during building the wheel. That leaves the elbow. Spoke breakages at the elbow (not caused by chain drop...) is caused by fatigue. So how do we build a wheel where fatigue breakage at the elbow can be reduced? Simple. We build a wheel where the tensioning / relieving process during riding does not take place at the spoke elbow. This is achieved by using double butted spokes. There, the spoke will be tensioned / relieved in the straight part (well, mainly), so the weakest point (the elbow, where there is a bend which is not good for the metal) is spared. Other wheel builders agree with me (e.g. Roger Musson, Sheldon Brown), in fact this is the reasoning you also find at those places. I'd have to check, but I believe also Sapim wrote something like that on their homepage.

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Oh, and when cutting the spoke loose: take care not to hurt yourself! There is a lot of tension on spokes, sometimes spokes might fly out of the rim and hit you. This is why you should put the rim tape on the rim when truing the wheel (some exceptions with weird spoke nipples, mostly system wheel sets).