Henry Lloyd Reynolds "Special Lightweight" tubing frameset (70s)

[Jesper]

I am getting an English made frame by artisan builder Henry Lloyd who ran a shop in the 50s-70s(?) in Nottingham (tough market since Raleigh and other companies were based there also). Frame is made with Reynolds "Special Lightweight" 531 tube set that preceded the "Professional" tube set introduced circa late 70s.

   
   

[meamoantonio]

Beautiful frame! Where do you guys even find stuff like these?

[Jesper]

(10-18-2023, 09:25 AM)meamoantonio Wrote:  Beautiful frame! Where do you guys even find stuff like these?

I find stuff while looking for parts for clients as well as for myself. It could be online or at local shops (just found some mid 80s Look pedals and a 70s Cinelli "Giro" bar, both in excellent condition: cost $5). If on ebay (plenty of scammers popping up), I try to contact the seller directly if I have not already done so in the past. Something that ebay frowns upon, but that I have found saves me a ton of money, and helps the seller also increase their profit by avoiding the ever increasing ebay (and other like sites) selling fees. Keywords like: unique, decor, decorative, art deco, fancy, ornate, custom, hand cut/built, etc. are good ways to find odd stuff whether you have a specific make in mind or not. I tend to look at certain features, and although fancy lugs are not necessarily an indicator of quality they do tend to be found on higher quality frames; especially those made in very limited quantities that are hand cut from lug blanks and/or are modified pre-cut lugs. Colnago is a good example of a loss of quality over an increase in production. One would assume that the builder would take substantially more time and ensure that a frame of this caliber did not just look good, but was built with quality in mind and would act as a fine representation of the builder's work. Who wants to put their own name (and thus integrity) on a product that is of low quality. I also look for makes that are not found everyday (do a basic quick search: no hits is usually a good sign of obscurity; though not necessarily quality) since they are easier to sell (if that is the intent) to the crowd either collecting and/or someone (like myself) who wants a bike that the next guy over on the group ride does not have. Also, having knowledge of builder's marks and features (stamps, cut-outs, engravings, etc.) that may not be advertised by the builder's name, but that prove a bike's provenance and thus value. Vanni Losa would be a good example of this since he built high quality frames for a number of top brands and small boutique brands; but I can identify his work regardless of whether the bike is listed as a Losa or not (I have various Losa frames/bikes; but none with his decals on it). I will provide more photos upon receipt of this frame. I am still trying to determine the actual builder since Lloyd was not a one man operation at the time this frame was built (assisted by Mick "Chalky" Cziorka who was a Polish artisan frame builder, and who may have been the actual builder of this frame).

[Jesper]

I have found out that the Reynolds "Special Lightweight" 531 tube set was first shown in a catalog circa 1978, but was available to, on a restricted basis, specialist lightweight frame builders since 753 tubing came out circa 1975 and was restricted only to builders who were certified to use it by Reynolds themselves due to heating limitations. "SL" tubing provided a lightweight tubing that could be obtained without the certification by Reynolds; it was supposedly replaced with "Pro" 531 tubing circa 1981. "SL" decal was said to be in use circa 1978.
Given that info I assume the frame to be no earlier than 1978 and probably no later than the mid 80s.

               

[Jesper]

More photos:

                                       

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More photos:

                       

[Sybian]

Cool Frame! Anymore idea as to its history?

[Jesper]

(11-02-2023, 07:57 PM)Sybian Wrote:  Cool Frame! Anymore idea as to its history?

Here is what I have uncovered regarding this English marque:
Henry Lloyd was essentially a one man shop (his sister and some part-time weekend "lad" helped at times) established in the late 1950s on Meadow Rd in Netherfield, Nottingham. I have an ad for the shop selling Claude Butler bikes in 1961. He also at some point sold Falcon, Holdsworth, Knight and Paragon (from Andy Bone) bikes/frames. He was a staunch supporter of the local club(s), and later on the Clarion started awarding annually the "Henry Lloyd Cup".
Anecdotal evidence suggests that Lloyd did not build frames, and that frames bearing his name did not occur until the late 70s (unknown if before or after shop changed hands). In the late 70s Lloyd retired and the shop was sold to Mick "Chalky" Cziorka (spelling?), Francis Grafton, and Gary Wharton, who were all members of Nottingham Clarion CC (as was Henry). Then in 1980 Langdale Lightweights shop (owner Brian Green) opened nearby and Lloyd's had trouble being competitive (with a shop that was possibly undercutting their pricing and building quality frames on site); as well as having to support a larger staff which tripled after ownership changed.
Lloyd's shop was closed in 1986 with Mick eventually moving on to Freewheel shop in Nottingham where he stayed for decades.

Regarding the frame, it is still a bit of a mystery since I have been unable to contact the original players. It could be that the new owners wanted the well established Lloyd name put on some frames for marketing purposes and/or as awards for local events. Since the shop closed in '86 it would seem reasonable to assume that the frame is '86 or earlier (the frame stamp may or may not indicate a year of 1986). I have seen only one other Lloyd badged frame which is a track frame made with "Tange #1" tubing which was first available circa 1984. It is known that Mick built some frames, but unknown during what time (during time at Lloyd's shop, after shutdown/before joining Freewheel, and/or during time at Freewheel) he built them.
The Reynolds "Special Lightweight" tube set was not available for more than a couple years (introduced circa '78; changed to "Professional" circa '80) so unless it was made with an "NOS" tube set, its features would fit a late '70s- early '80s build if the serial number's "86" is disregarded as a build date. The drop-outs being Shimano "UF" model were available circa 1978 through the '80s.
At this point I can only guess the frame to be 1978 at the earliest and 1986 at the latest with the builder unknown at this time. I can only assume that this and other Lloyd badged frames are rare and may have only been made (inhouse, or contract built) for special events or customers. I cannot even find a set of decals from the H. Lloyd company (no relation that I know of) that specializes in UK marque decal reproduction. You do not find the Reynolds "SL" on many bikes so it makes it a low volume frame regardless of the builder/marque.

[Sybian]

Thank you for that insight to the frame and the Lloyd shop history. I have not heard of the name as a marque nor any of the individuals concerned. I presume you were able to contact someone with some local knowledge to fill in the gaps.

[Jesper]

After a couple months researching this Henry Lloyd frame I am able to come to a fairly accurate history regarding who made it and when it was made. It truly is the most "international" frame I own: made in an English shop by a Polish builder with Reynolds English tubes, Prugnat French lugs, Campagnolo Italian braze-ons, and Tange Japanese drop-outs. It is a very rare (probably one-off bespoke frame with unique details after viewing 3 other "Chalky" built frames) frame built by Polish born Mick "Chalky" Cziorka (actual spelling?) who only made about 3 dozen frames at most. It was painted by Bob Jackson who was a very well known builder and painter in England (unfortunately, that shop recently closed after decades of service). "Chalky" built custom bespoke frames for racers (track, road, "lo-pro"), club riders, etc while at Lloyd's and after he left. Amazingly, since initiating this research and jogging folk's memories the cycling community has now accounted for (with photo evidence of 3 plus mine: Lloyd track, 2 Lloyd road, unbadged track-"Chalky's" personal frame) 6 of his bikes/frames including this frame. A "lo-pro" frame is known of but owner passed and its whereabouts are unaccounted for at this time. Given that 20% or more of his frames are still around is testament to their durability, workmanship/quality, and desirability not necessarily in a collectable manner but one in which you keep something because it served you well, was well made, custom made for you, and probably cost a pretty pound at the time it was built. It would seem, based on an anecdotal account*, that this frame was on display at Lloyd's shop (unknown if the frame was originally built-up, or displayed as frame alone) until the shop's closure in 1988 (other anecdotal accounts state shop closed in 1986). Since Lloyd's shop had a long life (1950s-'88?) of well respected service to the local cycling community it would make sense for Chalky to (now operating the shop after Henry Lloyd retired in 1978 due to health/age. Lloyd died shortly afterwards; trying to find birth/death dates), using his framebuilding skills, showcase them at the shop and also as a marketing gimmick to boost interest in a local shop with waning sales/revenue. The frame's serial number ""L861" denotes the first frame built in *1986; unknown as to what "L" signifies (possibly model-"lightweight"?). I do not yet know if the frame was originally built-up, or displayed as a frame alone (would make sense if

*Statements provided to me by the previous owner who purchased it directly from Lloyd's shop in 1988; built-up and rode for approximately 12 years until being stored for the past 23 years. The owner recently sold a sales lot of frames to the seller from whom I purchased it from. I am essentially the 4th owner (Lloyd's shop/Chalky, 35yr owner, dealer, me), but I am probably only the second user unless Lloyd's used it for special events which even then was probably fairly limited.

Questions remaining: was frame ever built-up in the shop or displayed as a frame? Were anymore frames of this design made? Where and from whom did "Chalky" learn his framebuilding skills?

Although this frame has some preservation issues, due to its rarity I am only doing a conservative restoration (clean up rust areas/stabilize, professionally spot paint if able to match, otherwise my own touch-up job to protect but easy to remove). The worst areas are the drop-outs; they should have been chromed, and now are going to be difficut to preserve without noticeable material loss (won't affect integrity/function), and markings will be gone or nearly gone. If Bob Jackson's shop was still open it would be worth it to have them repaint the frame (I would request that the drop-outs be plated), and they most likely sourced the decals for any of Lloyd badged frames they painted so could obtain them as well. I searched for decals and none are available unless custom made which is quite expensive for one or two sets only. Next comes deciding on parts to compliment this ride. Given its hybrid nationality I have no problem picking and choosing from any part I have while keeping them period correct ('80-'86) to the frame even with the frame looking more '50s-70s (I initially thought late 70s) era there parts made that fit the bill easily regarding form, function, and quality for my use.

[Jesper]

Here are more examples of Chalky's work:

Chalky's personal track bike with wrap around stays
                   
(photo credit: dttlincs @retrobike UK)

Custom built road frame for patron; notice use of head tube guide. This bike has serial "L873", and it is still owned by the original owner (his initials are engraved on the fork crown, which is usually where the builder/marque engraves their logo). This also lays to rest the question of whether Lloyd's shop closed in 1986 or 1988; definitely 1988.
               
(photo credit: Boston49r @retrobike UK)

Henry and Chalky at the shop shortly before Henry's retirement.
   
(photo credit: Nottingham Evening Post)

[enkei]

Man, is there ever some gorgeous stuff in this thread!

[Talha]

Henry Lloyd operated his shop during the 50s-70s so It's very impressive to see this now

[Jesper]

(12-19-2023, 01:46 AM)Talha Wrote:  Henry Lloyd operated his shop during the 50s-70s so It's very impressive to see this now

If you know of any local lore/history regarding the bike, builder, or shop I would be interested. I have not been able to determine when Lloyd's shop first opened aside from others stating 1950s and having a newspaper advert from 1961. Unable to find Lloyd's DOB/DOD; if you know his full name it would help some.

[Jesper]

More info from prior owner: "I bought it from Chalky as frame only, it had never been built up previously. I cannot recall the exact timeline, but it was after Henry's shop had closed as Mick was at Freewheel at this point. The shop closed in September 1988 and he had been at Freewheel for a while so I think it would be 89 by the time I got it, so approximately three years after it was built. It had been displayed in Henry's prior to the closure, so I'm not sure if it was built for display purposes or using up available components but either way I think it is pretty unique!"

So even though Lloyd's was open until late '88, it would seem that Chalky had already left before the closure sometime in '87 (he built at least 3 frames in '87 for the shop) or early '88, and at some point began working at Freewheel. I think that this frame's history has been pretty well documented for future reference. As a note, it is rare to obtain this much information about a specific bike/frame since often times many of the players are no longer with us, or memories are blurred with age.

[vecchio]

greetings to all, newbie here ...

Outstanding thread, thanks very much for this useful information. I've seen Henry LLoyd-branded frames and often wondered who 'these people' were.

If I may be so bold, what can you say about Giovanni Losa? He was a prolific builder who constructed many frames marketed under different brands, but very few carrying his own marque. WTF?

Again, very grateful for your contributions here. I will be watching for your posts closely.

salud

[Jesper]

@vecchio Thank you for your kind words!

Sorry, but I would have replied earlier, but I was enjoying time riding the hills of my childhood on classic bikes made in the era of my heydays, and I am not going online very often anymore.

I am curious as to where (bike shop, online sales, online forums, etc.) you saw Lloyd bikes/frames?
Presently I am only aware of a small number (if I recall: 3 photos privately owned, including mine; 2 or 3 privately owned anecdotally but no photos; photos of a privately owned track bike that was supposedly built & ridden by "Chalky"; photos of a track bike from an ebay seller. So photographic evidence of 5 frames but by "Chalky"; & maybe another 3 still unseen. Anecdotally, he had only built about 3 dozen frames, and only a portion of them would have been badged as Lloyd frames so they are a rare marque to find in general.
I ask because frame is pretty much unique other than those other frames with Lloyd decals (the "Chalky" track bike has no identifiers). It would be nice to get a better scope of how Mick built, and the commonalities between frames (lugs, braze-on fittings, frame materials/drop-outs, detailing/engraving).

Regarding "Vanni" Losa, I am not sure why he did not badge many frames under his own name other than to assume that he was too busy a man to be building frames badged eponymously. He seemed to nearly be a one man factory (other than helpers) considering how many brands his frames were sold under. He built frames for various marques and teams; some outside of Italy.
I assume it was his choice to do contract work and he may have found it more profitable and/or enjoyable to work as contract builder and not run a full scale business which takes more time and staff. Although I am mostly familiar with Italian builders, I assume that many French, English, and other countrys' builders (e.g. Carré, et al.) did similar work since it was not uncommon amongst Italian builders like Losa, Pelà, et al.