GT Triple Triangle?

[nfmisso]

What size tires are you going with ?

The Adventurer has 18mm inside wide, the DM24 has 24mm - otherwise they are very similar rims.

If you are going 26 x 1.95 or narrower, go with the Adventurer. Wider, the DM24.

[xerxes]

Hi Bill,

Unless you're doing some really rough off-road, or down hill riding I think you could go for something a bit lighter. Whilst I'm generally not a weight weenie, wheels are one place were you don't want more weight than necessary. Unless you really do need super strong wheels for jumps or heavy tyres for long distance or puncture resistance, the lighter the better.

How about something like this: http://www.mavic.com/en/product/rims/mountain-bike/rims/XM-317

I have the disc version on my hard tail, I weigh about 210 lbs and I've covered hundreds of miles on and off road without any problems, they're still as true as the day I got them.

[Bill]

To answer this I wander if the Adventurer could hold a 2.00" safely comfortably ? If not I will go with the DM24's. I just want whatever I am getting to have the double wall!

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xerxes you must have just posted that as I was typing lol. Thanks for the link, but yes I am going for heavy duty rims.

[Bill]

Next here is a little progress I am have made, pictures say a thousand words so here are some pics..
But to let you know it only took me like minutes to pull off all the oxidation that was on the cranks!!! Also did the stem too! Love my dremel! Also the BB was perfect, note that it is NOT tightened up yet. Yes there is still lots to do but I felt like sharing some pics lol!

[Bill]

Nigel take a look at the DM-18's and tell me your opinion please.

[xerxes]

Here you go Bill, you can find hundreds of user reviews here:

http://www.mtbr.com/cat/tires-and-wheels/rim/alex-rims/dm18/prd_416196_139crx.aspx

http://www.mtbr.com/cat/tires-and-wheels/rim/pls_139_913crx.aspx

[xerxes]

Here you go Bill, you can find hundreds of user reviews here:

http://www.mtbr.com/cat/tires-and-wheels/rim/alex-rims/dm18/prd_416196_139crx.aspx

http://www.mtbr.com/cat/tires-and-wheels/rim/pls_139_913crx.aspx

[nfmisso]

(09-04-2012, 11:43 PM)Bill Wrote:  Nigel take a look at the DM-18's and tell me your opinion please.

10% heavier than the Adventurer; fractionally wider. If you are sticking with 2.00 or narrower, the Adventure makes more sense. The DM-18 probably would go to 2.25 or so, and DM-24 beyond that.

MTBers tend to use much narrower rims than roadies.

Adventurer is 545g
DM-18 is 600g
DM-24 is 660g

you will notice the difference when accelerating and braking.

All are strong double wall rims.

Given that you chose 32 spokes per wheel - strength to weight ratio is not your highest priority, and you probably are not going to go off 6ft jumps; go with the Adventurer or CR18 unless you have a really good reason not to.

The Adventure and the CR18 are the beefiest rims I have. The Dyad looks light and elegant in comparison. The Aeroheat (same extrusion as Dyad) is 442g for a ISO559 (26") rim.

The Sun CR18 in ISO559 is 547g, practically equal to the Adventurer.

From a wheel build perspective, the CR18 and Adventurer are equivalent. Both are quick and easy to build up; and about the same price.

For more money, Velocity Aeroheat and Mavic are good choices.

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(09-05-2012, 08:02 AM)xerxes Wrote:  Here you go Bill, you can find hundreds of user reviews here:

http://www.mtbr.com/cat/tires-and-wheels/rim/alex-rims/dm18/prd_416196_139crx.aspx

http://www.mtbr.com/cat/tires-and-wheels/rim/pls_139_913crx.aspx

That first reviewer of the DM18 that rated it so low is full of ____ it is obvious that whoever built the wheel did a lousy job - the spoke tension was way too low - nothing to do with the rim.

Be very careful with rim review, the quality of the wheel build is far more important; and most issues identified are due to build issues, not component issues.

[xerxes]

Quote:Be very careful with rim review, the quality of the wheel build is far more important; and most issues identified are due to build issues, not component issues.

I totally agree, that's why I think Bill could use a far lighter rim than the heavy downhill/trials/jump rims he's looking at. You can get good XC (cross country) or All Mountain rims in the 400-500g range that should be well up to the job of trail riding and touring. For jumps etc. a really stiff heavy rim can help prevent you taco'ing it if you land badly, if you're not jumping, that's far less likely to be an issue.

For example a pair of MAVIC XM 317 I linked to earlier would be 440 grams lighter than a pair of DM-24, that's just under a pound, and that extra weight would be right where you don't want it on a bike.

[nfmisso]

(09-05-2012, 12:33 PM)xerxes Wrote:  

Quote:Be very careful with rim review, the quality of the wheel build is far more important; and most issues identified are due to build issues, not component issues.

I totally agree, that's why I think Bill could use a far lighter rim than the heavy downhill/trials/jump rims he's looking at. You can get good XC (cross country) or All Mountain rims in the 400-500g range that should be well up to the job of trail riding and touring. For jumps etc. a really stiff heavy rim can help prevent you taco'ing it if you land badly, if you're not jumping, that's far less likely to be an issue.

For example a pair of MAVIC XM 317 I linked to earlier would be 440 grams lighter than a pair of DM-24, that's just under a pound, and that extra weight would be right where you don't want it on a bike.

ditto

In the USA, the Sun CR18 and Alex Adventurer are about half the price of the Mavic XM 317 or Velocity Dyad - and about 10% heavier. Have to decide if the 200g mass reduction is worth $40-

I (at 300+ lbs) would not go to a heavier rim than the CR18/Adventurer; but I would also go no less than 36 spokes.

Strength to mass ratio is better for high spoke counts with lighter rims and reducing the size of the spokes - it the extreme example, using spokes like the Wheelsmith XL15 - 40 of those are lighter than are 12g lighter than 32 Wheelsmith DB14 spokes - would result in a stronger wheel with even a very light rim.

[xerxes]

Quote:In the USA, the Sun CR18 and Alex Adventurer are about half the price of the Mavic XM 317

That's interesting, in the UK, the Mavics are about the same price as the rims that Bill was looking at, which is why I suggested them:

Mavic XM 317 36H 26": £20.00 each inc. free shipping
Sun CR18 36H 26": £20.00 each plus £20 shipping
Alex Adventurer 36H 26": £23.00 each plus £20 shipping

Here in the UK, Sun and Alex rims are only available on Ebay direct from the US with £20.00 shipping costs. However, Mavic are a really big brand in Europe and I though they would be available pretty much glovally and that the base price would be similar to the other brands in the US; it would appear not.

[Bill]

Ok the 2 adventurers are ordered! After they get here I am going for the measurements for the rear wheel and also the front. Now the two easy parts are done all we have left is getting the measurements for spokes . Think I am gonna go work on some minor things and check back here in a while.
EDIT: Hey Nigel if you get time could you post a close up of your Rims?

[xerxes]

What spokes and hubs are you going for Bill?

[nfmisso]

(09-05-2012, 07:51 PM)Bill Wrote:  .....
EDIT: Hey Nigel if you get time could you post a close up of your Rims?

Sorry, they are 7000 miles from me now; until 21 Sept.

[Bill]

Not sure which spokes as of yet, but I know from reading all the authors like Gerd Schraner, Roger Musson, and Jobst Brandt said NOT to go cheap on this part of the wheel! Rims Alex Adventurer and hub are Shimano Deore Lx M550 32hole.
Yea I just saw on a different post I think that you were heading for China again. No problem on the pics Nigel just have fun while over there .

[xerxes]

Quote:Not sure which spokes as of yet, but I know from reading all the authors like Gerd Schraner, Roger Musson, and Jobst Brandt said NOT to go cheap on this part of the wheel!

Yes, I'd go along with that. I'd go for stainless, and a good brand:

DT Swiss Champion 14g plain guage and/or DT Swiss Competion 14/16 guage double butted.

Sapim Leader 14g plain guage and/or Sapim Race 14/16 guage double butted.

Wheelsmith SS14 14g plain guage and/or Wheelsmith DB14 or XL14 double butted.

I don't think there's much to choose between the quality of these three brands, so I'd go for whichever you can get for the best price.

I'd probably copy SPA Cyles: http://www.spacycles.co.uk/products.php?plid=m2b0s200p0, they have a good reputation for handbuilt wheels, and use double butted, except for the drive side of the rear wheel, where I'd use plain guage.

The great thing about quality stainless spokes, apart from being really stong, is that they look good for years. I don't know what brand they are, but these stainless spokes are 22 years old:



Also, when you buy new Shimano hubs, with cups and cones, they come factory adjusted, but the adjustment is never usually that good. I'd re-adjust them before I first used them, remembering to take into account tightening effect the quick release skewer has on the bearings when you fit them to the bike. This way your bearings will probably roll better and last longer than they will if you leave them factory adjusted.

http://sheldonbrown.com/cone-adjustment.html

[nfmisso]

I have used Wheelsmith exclusively; started based on Peter White's rant:

http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/spokes.asp

Keep in mind each company uses slightly different sized nipples, so you need a spoke wrench for each.

One point of non agreement with Xerxes; I would consider using DH13 on the drive side rear, and SS14 or DB14 on the non drive side. On the front use which ever you use on the non-drive side.

There is no difference in strength between a SS14 and DB14 - the DB14 is fractionally lighter and more expensive.

On most of my wheels I am using SS14 - $25- for 50 thru Amazon. DH13s I get from Peter White and only the qty I need.

I need to get a DT sized spoke wrench for my new tandem wheel - and with the re-dishing I am seriously considering changing the drive side to DH13 or the DT equivalent.

[Bill]

Suggestions taken into consideration definitely!!! Thanks xerxes and thanks Nigel! .
Ok I have not received the rims yet, maybe today. However I called Shimano to see if they had anything on the M550 hubset I am using. The guy looked and found that he could not go back any further then 1999! So amidst I decided to sit down and get some measurements with my calipre to which maybe off. I used the spoke calc here .. http://www.wheelpro.co.uk/spokecalc/ . Here are my inputs
Hub Flange diameters:
Left: 45mm
Right: 45mm

Flange Distance:
Left: 31.2
Right 20.28

Rim Diameter: 540.6 (Manufacturer ERD)

Offset : left this blank

Spokes : 32

Output
Left Right
Cassette side
R 1x 2x 3x 4x R 1x 2x 3x 4x
32 248.3 250.2 255.3 262.9 271.6 247.2 249.0 254.2 261.8 270.5

You must ensure the hub manufacturer allows radial spoking of this hub, many manufacturers do not.
Hub : M550a
Rim : Adventurer
Wheel type : Rear normal
Hub diameters : Left = 45 Right = 45
Flange distance : Left = 31.2 Right = 20.11
Rim diameter : 540.6

Hub M550a
Rim Adventurer
Spoke type
Spoke count 32
Crosses
Spoke lengths Left Right
Initial selection
Ideal length
Alternate length

Now the last table kinda baffled me as I do not know why it did not give out any numbers . But as I said my measurements are as best as I could do with what I have. Does this look right to you???

[xerxes]

(09-06-2012, 06:22 PM)nfmisso Wrote:  I would consider using DH13 on the drive side rear.

Might be a bit of overkill on a single seater. Also, you would need to check that they would fit in the spoke holes on the hub flange, might be a bit tight on some.

[nfmisso]

With Spocalcexpress I get:

Dimension Name INPUT CROSS LENGTH
N, total number of spokes 32 0 248.6
ERD, effective rim diameter 540.6 1 250.5
W, width from center to flange 31.2 2 255.6
d, flange diameter 45.0 3 263.2
S, spoke hole diameter 2.3 4 271.9
X, no. cross (decimal allowed) 3 3 263.2

and

Dimension Name INPUT CROSS LENGTH
N, total number of spokes 32 0 247.5
ERD, effective rim diameter 540.6 1 249.3
W, width from center to flange 20.3 2 254.5
d, flange diameter 45.0 3 262.1
S, spoke hole diameter 2.3 4 270.8
X, no. cross (decimal allowed) 3 3 262.1

looks like 263 and 262 for non drive and drive side respectively for 3X. Same as the other calculator.

What about the front hub?

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(09-07-2012, 07:52 AM)xerxes Wrote:  

(09-06-2012, 06:22 PM)nfmisso Wrote:  I would consider using DH13 on the drive side rear.

Might be a bit of overkill on a single seater. Also, you would need to check that they would fit in the spoke holes on the hub flange, might be a bit tight on some.

DH13 are no problem with Shimano hubs - can't speak for others without trying them.

he is only using 32H hubs.......using DH13/SS14 on the rear and SS14 on the front would definitely mean the brake surfaces on the rims would be the first thing to wear out or cause problems on a well built wheel.

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(09-06-2012, 09:06 AM)xerxes Wrote:  ........Also, when you buy new Shimano hubs, with cups and cones, they come factory adjusted, but the adjustment is never usually that good. I'd re-adjust them before I first used them......

A BIG 10-4 on this - the factory adjustment is terrible on ALL of the Shimano hubs I have encountered. I always clean and re-pack, and adjust so they are tight axially and radially, but spin freely. May take a couple attempts, but definitely worth the time.