Vintage Garlatti Wander road bike

[JBolton]

    Hey all,

New to the site and looking to find out more information about my bike. Mainly looking to pinpoint when it was made, but any information would be helpful! Thanks in advance. The front and rear derailleurs are campagnolo.

[Jesper]

(11-17-2020, 03:15 PM)JBolton Wrote:  Hey all,

New to the site and looking to find out more information about my bike. Mainly looking to pinpoint when it was made, but any information would be helpful! Thanks in advance. The front and rear derailleurs are campagnolo.

Welcome to the site; nice bike to start off with!

We need some more detailed pictures: driveside components, brakes (calipers & levers), frame conjunctions, BB shell underside, braze-ons, decals, stampings/engravings (on parts and frame), etc. Also, the inside diameter of the seat tube (or O.D. of the seat post) might help us to determine the tubing used for at least the 3 main frame tubes. I can make out the Campy shifters, they appear to be "Valentino Extra" model from the late 60s-70s; if original they would probably put this in the very late '60s (if they are "Gran Sport" model then possibly later 50s) to the late 70s. "Valentino Extra" and "Gran Sport" shifters are very similar looking. The front derailleur looks like a "matchbox" push rod style; again probably a "Valentino" model (very late 60s- late 70s) with the cage locking bolt protruding towards the front (if bolt is on top then it is a "Gran Sport" derailleur 50s-60s). If the brakes are Universal "MOD. 61" (introduced in 1961), then that adds more credence to a 60s bike, but again it could still be from the 70s. I can't make out the head lugs; might be "Agrati".
A quick guess would be in the early-mid '70s given the features I can see. Overall, if the components are "Gran Sport" and not "Valentino", then the bike is probably an older model from the 60s (and more valuable); if "Valentino" parts, then it would probably be a lower grade (not necessarily poor) frame from the 70s. The "Wander" is not specifically a model as I know it, but another range of bikes built by Emilio Garlatti's son, Alvise Garlatti, who began building Garlatti "Wander" badged bikes as an alternative "side brand" allowing larger area distribution of a lower cost bike/frame; "Wander" started sometime in the 50s. The Garlatti brand still exists today (don't know if "Wander" still is), but I don't know if they still manufacture their own bikes or just act as a retailer for other marques.

[JBolton]

(11-18-2020, 04:28 AM)Jesper Wrote:  

(11-17-2020, 03:15 PM)JBolton Wrote:  Hey all,

New to the site and looking to find out more information about my bike. Mainly looking to pinpoint when it was made, but any information would be helpful! Thanks in advance. The front and rear derailleurs are campagnolo.

Welcome to the site; nice bike to start of with!

We need some more detailed pictures: driveside components, brakes (calipers & levers), frame conjunctions, BB shell underside, braze-ons, decals, stampings/engravings (on parts and frame), etc. Also, the inside diameter of the seat tube (or O.D. of the seat post) might help us to determine the tubing used for at least the 3 main frame tubes. I can make out the Campy shifters, they appear to be "Valentino Extra" model from the late 60s-70s; if original they would probably put this in the very late '60s (if they are "Gran Sport" model then possibly later 50s) to the late 70s. "Valentino Extra" and "Gran Sport" shifters are very similar looking. The front derailleur looks like a "matchbox" push rod style; again probably a "Valentino" model (very late 60s- late 70s) with the cage locking bolt protruding towards the front (if bolt is on top then it is a "Gran Sport" derailleur 50s-60s). If the brakes are Universal "MOD. 61" (introduced in 1961), then that adds more credence to a 60s bike, but again it could still from the 70s. I can't make out the head lugs; might be "Agratti".
A quick guess would be in the early-mid '70s given the features I can see. Overall, if the components are "Gran Sport" and not "Valentino", then the bike is probably an older model from the 60s (and more valuable); if "Valentino" parts, then it would probably be a lower grade (not necessarily poor) frame from the 70s. The "Wander" is not specifically a model as I know it, but another range of bikes built by Emilio Garlatti's son, Alvise Garlatti, who began building Garlatti "Wander" badged bikes as an alternative "side brand" allowing larger area distribution of a lower cost bike/frame; "Wander" started sometime in the 50s. The brand still exists today, but I don't know if they still manufacture their own bikes or just act as a retailer for other marques.

Really appreciate the response! The rear derailleurs say Valentino Extra, However I’m attaching a picture of the front derailleurs for you to confirm. Also attaching a picture of the front and rear brakes. Thanks again for all the help.

[Jesper]

(11-19-2020, 01:51 AM)JBolton Wrote:  Really appreciate the response! The rear derailleurs say Valentino Extra, However I’m attaching a picture of the front derailleurs for you to confirm. Also attaching a picture of the front and rear brakes. Thanks again for all the help.

Thanks for the extra pics.
Definitely Valentino Extra mechs, Agrati lugs. The headbadge is the Wander marque, but I do not know the model or if they made more than one. Considering that the frame was given chrome treatment it may have been a step or two up from their less expensive model; I have seen Wander frames without any chrome. The Valentino group was essentially Campy's lowest quality component set, but it works fine if kept in good condition and adjusted properly; I use the same group on an early 70s bike without issue. The Universal brakes are a bit odd in that they do not have "MOD. 61" stamped/cast into them. I only know of one model of centerpull brakes by Universal so these may have been model 61s by function and design, but may not have been finished as finely as the initial 61s allowing them to be marketed at lower cost. This especially makes sense during the "bike boom" where both component and frame manufacturers were cutting costs in order to keep up with demand for low cost bikes during that era. The Campy Valentino group is a good example of this.
I am still going with early to mid 70s for the year. Easy upgrade would be a different rear derailleur and some alloy wheels, but that bike will make a nice rider as is with the original parts.

[JBolton]

(11-19-2020, 09:49 AM)Jesper Wrote:  

(11-19-2020, 01:51 AM)JBolton Wrote:  Really appreciate the response! The rear derailleurs say Valentino Extra, However I’m attaching a picture of the front derailleurs for you to confirm. Also attaching a picture of the front and rear brakes. Thanks again for all the help.

Thanks for the extra pics.
Definitely Valentino Extra mechs, Agrati lugs. The headbadge is the Wander marque, but I do not know the model or if they made more than one. Considering that the frame was given chrome treatment it may have been a step or two up from their less expensive model. The Valentino group was essentially Campy's lowest quality component set, but it works fine if kept in good condition and adjusted properly; I use the same group on an early 70s bike without issue. The Universal brakes are a bit odd in that they do not have "MOD. 61" stamped/cast into them. I only know of one model of centerpull brakes by Universal so these may have been model 61s by function and design, but may not have been finished as finely as the initial 61s allowing them to be marketed at lower cost. This especially makes sense during the "bike boom" where both component and frame manufacturers were cutting costs in order to keep up with demand for low cost bikes during that era. The Campy Valentino group is a good example of this.
I am still going with early to mid 70s for the year. Easy upgrade would be a different rear derailleur and some alloy wheels, but that bike will make a nice rider as is with the original parts.

Again really appreciate the comprehensive response. I’ll definitely look into upgrading the rear derailleur to better campy model (if you have any suggestions other than the gran sport let me know!). The brakes make a bit of noise, but other than that the bike rides great. Out of curiosity, I paid $300 for the bike, would you say that’s a fair price?

[Jesper]

(11-19-2020, 03:48 PM)JBolton Wrote:  Again really appreciate the comprehensive response. I’ll definitely look into upgrading the rear derailleur to better campy model (if you have any suggestions other than the gran sport let me know!). The brakes make a bit of noise, but other than that the bike rides great. Out of curiosity, I paid $300 for the bike, would you say that’s a fair price?

If you want to stay somewhat period correct for the components then I would suggest a Campy "Nuovo Gran Sport" ($40-$60 average), "Nuovo Record" ($40-$60 average) or "Super Record" ($$60-$80 average) derailleur in good used condition. They all give better performance than the "Valentino", their main difference being in weight and gear capacity. In order to provide better shifting I am using a modern SRAM brand chain (of proper width for a 5-6 speed!); big improvement for low cost while keeping the bike looking original; using a period Sun Tour rear gear cluster/freewheel would also help a lot, but I am not out riding this bike like my regular racers so the shifting is sufficient for my needs at this time. If you are not too concerned with keeping it 100% Italian then I would go with a period Sun Tour derailleur, e.g. "V-GT" model or "Cyclone" model, both from around the mid 70's (you can go with a little earlier "V" model of steel vice aluminum construction); both of which outperformed Campy at the time at a much lower cost. Campy was essentially just "re-dressing" older designs and changing from steel to aluminum and titanium parts making their units lighter, but never really improving their function until the later 80s. Unfortunately, now those "cheaper" Sun Tour derailleurs are fetching a decent price, but you should be able to find them at a reasonable price due to the amount that were mounted as original equipment on all those Japanese bikes from the 70s.
Your brakes will be noisy due to those type of knurled rims on the braking track. If they are noisy from improper mating then you may be able to reposition them slightly; newer brake pads/holders allow for better adjustment of the pad angle, but this can also be obtained from using small shims between the pad holder and caliper arm which will affect a change in angle. I take a small lock washer (solid ring, not split) and file it at a slight angle and then add very thin shims if I need to adjust it more, usually my shims do fine ("Shim- In-A-Can", .005-.015"); you can cut up a an aluminum can and custom make some shim material for yourself. I would suggest new brake pads regardless; better surface area coverage and better designed composition for improved braking (KoolStop, etc); but alloy rims would be the biggest help in that area as well as saving a fair amount of weight.
I would be interested to know what pedals and saddle you have mounted; they might also determine its quality level/model if original to the bike.
Pricewise that bike when new probably cost somewhere in the $150-$200 range (guessing!); given its condition and somewhat obscure history I think I would value it around $150-$200 minimum; about the same as when it was new. Primarily due to the lower end component group on it and steel rims, and more than likely straight gauge/non-butted high tensile steel tubing (seat post diameter should help with that identification, 26.8mm to 27.2mm higher quality/lighter steel in general). It was essentially the "city race bike" style made in vast quantities by many companies. Your bike was probably made in lower numbers given it is from a smaller manufacturer, but I would assume it was a handmade quality frame nonetheless; just not, what was at the time, a lightweight frame made from specialty tubing; and probably not built by a master frame builder, but by an apprentice (again, that does not mean low quality!). I don't think that $300 is extreme, especially if you like the bike; probably would be the maximum price I'd pay if it was a desirable harder to find frame for me. I think the fact that it has chrome on it gives it a little more panache, and thus value. I would first try to rebuild and clean everything up and see how it rides. You may find it suites your needs perfectly as is. I would not be embarrassed riding that bike, overall good quality, and easily upgraded. I would remove the kickstand if not using as a commuter, but that's just me (lighter, faster).

[Jesper]

Here are some photos of a similarly outfitted bike, but on a top of the line frame which was also designed and utilized for Crescent's high end racing bikes. Unlike your bike, I could swap out all the components with the high end components of the time and I would have the same racing bike as some pro's used back in the day. Right now, except for having a much lighter frame, my bike would perform similarly to yours given the function of the components, but my frame's geometry is significantly different and would handle better at higher speeds during cornering and descents. All I did was to rebuild all components (all parts original to the bike except chain, and seat post; both of which I still have), touch-up the paint, and embellish some of the components with frame matching "paint" (nail polish in this case; many colors available cheap). If you look at my rims you will notice that they are also knurled like yours are on the braking track, but mine are alloy rims with alloy Campy hubs; they are still quite noisy, but that is due to the rim surface and not from being misadjusted. To give you an idea as to value; my frame (Reynolds 531 butted) is worth about $250-$300 without any components mounted; but the bike complete as it sits, it is only worth about $150 more with component value added in.

Crescent Pepita 1972/73
   

Valentino Extra RD
   

Weinmann Centerpull brakes
   

Valentino Extra FD
   

Valentino Extra Shifters with R.E.G. covers.
   

[JBolton]

(11-20-2020, 02:28 AM)Jesper Wrote:  

(11-19-2020, 03:48 PM)JBolton Wrote:  Again really appreciate the comprehensive response. I’ll definitely look into upgrading the rear derailleur to better campy model (if you have any suggestions other than the gran sport let me know!). The brakes make a bit of noise, but other than that the bike rides great. Out of curiosity, I paid $300 for the bike, would you say that’s a fair price?

If you want to stay somewhat period correct for the components then I would suggest a Campy "Nuovo Gran Sport" ($40-$60 average), "Nuovo Record" ($40-$60 average) or "Super Record" ($$60-$80 average) derailleur in good used condition. They all give better performance than the "Valentino", their main difference being in weight and gear capacity. In order to provide better shifting I am using a modern SRAM brand chain (of proper width for a 5-6 speed!); big improvement for low cost while keeping the bike looking original; using a period Sun Tour rear gear cluster/freewheel would also help a lot, but I am not out riding this bike like my regular racers so the shifting is sufficient for my needs at this time. If you are not too concerned with keeping it 100% Italian then I would go with a period Sun Tour derailleur, e.g. "V-GT" model or "Cyclone" model, both from around the mid 70's (you can go with a little earlier "V" model of steel vice aluminum construction); both of which outperformed Campy at the time at a much lower cost. Campy was essentially just "re-dressing" older designs and changing from steel to aluminum and titanium parts making their units lighter, but never really improving their function until the later 80s. Unfortunately, now those "cheaper" Sun Tour derailleurs are fetching a decent price, but you should be able to find them at a reasonable price due to the amount that were mounted as original equipment on all those Japanese bikes from the 70s.
Your brakes will be noisy due to those type of knurled rims on the braking track. If they are noisy from improper mating then you may be able to reposition them slightly; newer brake pads/holders allow for better adjustment of the pad angle, but this can also be obtained from using small shims between the pad holder and caliper arm which will affect a change in angle. I take a small lock washer (solid ring, not split) and file it at a slight angle and then add very thin shims if I need to adjust it more, usually my shims do fine ("Shim- In-A-Can", .005-.015"); you can cut up a an aluminum can and custom make some shim material for yourself. I would suggest new brake pads regardless; better surface area coverage and better designed composition for improved braking (KoolStop, etc); but alloy rims would be the biggest help in that area as well as saving a fair amount of weight.
I would be interested to know what pedals and saddle you have mounted; they might also determine its quality level/model if original to the bike.
Pricewise that bike when new probably cost somewhere in the $150-$200 range (guessing!); given its condition and somewhat obscure history I think I would value it around $150-$200 minimum; about the same as when it was new. Primarily due to the lower end component group on it and steel rims, and more than likely straight gauge/non-butted high tensile steel tubing (seat post diameter should help with that identification, 26.8mm to 27.2mm higher quality/lighter steel in general). It was essentially the "city race bike" style made in vast quantities by many companies. Your bike was probably made in lower numbers given it is from a smaller manufacturer, but I would assume it was a handmade quality frame nonetheless; just not, what was at the time, a lightweight frame made from specialty tubing; and probably not built by a master frame builder, but by an apprentice (again, that does not mean low quality!). I don't think that $300 is extreme, especially if you like the bike; probably would be the maximum price I'd pay if it was a desirable harder to find frame for me. I think the fact that it has chrome on it gives it a little more panache, and thus value. I would first try to rebuild and clean everything up and see how it rides. You may find it suites your needs perfectly as is. I would not be embarrassed riding that bike, overall good quality, and easily upgraded. I would remove the kickstand if not using as a commuter, but that's just me (lighter, faster).

To follow up, the saddle is ADGA and the pedals are Lyotard BTE SDGA 136R 9/16.

So I think my significant other will be primarily using this bike as a casual/commuter bike. For myself I’m looking for more of a performance bike (mainly a lighter frame to build on) similar to the bike you shared. If you don’t mind could you share some thoughts on the below options? They seem in line with the previous suggestions on components, frame, etc.

https://newyork.craigslist.org/jsy/bik/d/jersey-city-vintage-centurion-lemans-rs/7232774030.html

https://newjersey.craigslist.org/bik/d/mendham-vintage-univega-gran-turismo/7211230447.html

https://newjersey.craigslist.org/bik/d/mendham-vintage-rudge-sun-mens-10-speed/7219858854.html

https://newjersey.craigslist.org/bik/d/mendham-vintage-soma-competition-10/7214123876.html

[Jesper]

@JBolton
I was doing some research and came another Wander model. Just wondering how that bike is doing and what you managed to pick up for yourself. Sorry I didn't provide any feedback on your potential selections (as a note: all your picks were probably good except the Rudge unless it was pre-60s). I was probably getting distracted by the ebb and flow of hospital work; finally getting a rest after the past increase so hope you and your family are well.
I would be interested to see your present ride if you got something 80s or earlier; always like to see the older bikes still humming along.

[JBolton]

@Jesper

This is also quite a delayed response, but would love to hear anything you might have found out about the other Wander model. I still own mine, and ride it as much as possible (Mostly to and from work, but do some longer rides on the weekend). I haven’t really made too much improvements other than new tires because it suits my needs for the most part. Hope you are well!

[Jesper]

(05-25-2023, 11:45 PM)JBolton Wrote:  @Jesper

This is also quite a delayed response, but would love to hear anything you might have found out about the other Wander model. I still own mine, and ride it as much as possible (Mostly to and from work, but do some longer rides on the weekend). I haven’t really made too much improvements other than new tires because it suits my needs for the most part. Hope you are well!

Glad to hear that you are getting good service out of a 50 year old bike with thw original set-up. Nothing wrong with that.
I had discovered that the original Wander marque was of German origin, and the bike I saw was made from tubing sourced from Mannesman (German) tubing. Bike was estimated to be late 50s to early 60s. I am not sure when Garlatti gained the rights of the "Wander" name, but I suspect it was in the late 60s to early 70s. Not sure if I mentioned this previously, but your seat post diameter would be a fairly decent indicator of the tubing type/quality (was there a tubing decal?); 27.0mm (larger frames approx. 58cm or more) or 27.2mm would be a higher end lighter weight tubing and more than likely of Columbus manufacture (27.0: "SP" or 27.2mm "SL" butted tubing). The weight of your bike is not a good indicator of tubing grade due to having a kickstand and many steel parts. If the seat post is smaller than 26.8mm it tends to lend evidence to the fact that is is a non-butted straight gauge tube set and thicker walled tubing due to use of a lower grade (but not unreliable) steel alloy. I have taken bikes similar to yours and exchanged steel parts for aluminum (also removed kickstand) and reduced overall weight by 5 to 8 pounds which is substantial. 8 pounds is one gallon of water so that adds up to a lot of saved energy on longer rides; but my changes do not necessarily affect the handling/performance of a bike since that lies more in the tubing used and frame geometry.