Building First Wheel. Few Questions.

[Fractal]

I posted earlier about wanting new 700c wheels and was suggested to build my own. After watching a few videos and reading up on wheel building from Sheldon Brown I decided I am up to the challenge .

I am basically trying to reproduce these wheels: http://www.amazon.com/Mavic-Tiagra-A319-Road-Wheel/dp/B0030KXEUA/

I have decided on using a Shimano 36H Tiagra rear cassette hub and a Shimano Tiagra 32H front hub from Amazon. (32 front vs 36 rear for better performance?)

As far as the rims, I think I will get a rim from Mavic's "Performance and Comfort" line. I want to add a rack to the rear wheel, and occasionally fenders to both wheels during rainy days. I want to be able to use a 28-32c tire as well. Are the Mavic A319's suitable for this? Or will I need a better/lesser rim for this? I will also be riding a ~15 mile (30 mile round trip) daily commute if that helps.

Depending on which rim I choose I then have to choose the correct spokes and spoke lengths. Are triple-butted spokes a good choice for the right side of the rim? What about the left (thinner spokes)? I am having trouble finding prices for spokes and nipples.

Essentially I am trying to stay within $50 of the linked wheelset ($100-200), but it's already costing more with just the rims and hubs. I suppose that's the learners fee . Thank you for taking the time to read this and help.

[nfmisso]

For your first few wheel builds, go for simple and robust; then after you have built 10 or so, start branching out.

32H front, 36H rear is a good robust choice. the 32H will result in a fractionally lighter front wheel, I tend not to go with this route because the 36H hubs are often more then $2.50 less than the 32H hubs and SS14 spokes are $0.50 each (nipples are practically free when you buy 500 at a time).
http://www.amazon.com/Shimano-HB-4600-Tiagra-Front-Silver/dp/B005DUXV9E/
note $3- spread, with 36H being less.
http://www.amazon.com/Shimano-FH-4600-Tiagra-Rear-Silver/dp/B005DUXUUY/


Mavic A319 are nice rims; my preference is Velocity Dyad.
http://www.amazon.com/Velocity-Dyad-Rim-700c-Silver/dp/B001GSQSG0/
http://www.amazon.com/Velocity-Dyad-Rim-700c-Silver/dp/B001GSKR08/
could not find a A319 36H 700c rim on Amazon, above are Dyad, note that the 32H is $6- more than the 36H

Go with Wheelsmith SS14 spokes and Wheelsmith 12mm nickel plated brass nipples - both available thru Amazon.


You also need a good spoke wrench that matches the nipples that you choose - they are not all the same.

HINTS:
* when first lacing the wheel, make sure that all of the spokes have the same amount of thread showing - this will make things a LOT easier when tensioning and truing.
* take it SLOW. Check your work often.
* lubricate the bend end of the spokes and the nipples with light oil, I use Tri-Flow.
* spoke failure is usually (99+% of the time) due to low tension.
* if you are striping the nipples, you are too high a tension.
* pluck the spokes, all the fronts should be about the same note, the driveside rear should be higher, and the nondriveside lower.

[1FJEF]

The only thing I know for sure about wheels is how to pay for them, but wouldn't you accomplish the same off-side tension goal with 13/14 butted on the drive side and 14/15/14 on the NDS? Or just straight 14. Or if you wanted to get high tech about it you could use 13 triple butted on the NDS.
You would get much more tension on the NDS & distributed more evenly at that.
Just a thought.
You might want to check rider weight too. I believe the rider in question is 240lbs. I think the rim he's looking at is too light duty for long term reliability.
I like massive rear rims like a Velocity Atlas or NoBS, or even the Psycho, (discontinued, but available). 36 or more spokes.

[nfmisso]

Jef; WinterRider is the one who does not understand the Engineering reality of building a wheel.

Tension is in units of force per unit area; ideally tension is the same in all spokes; with the compressive stress (also force per unit area) in the rim even all the way around. There is no way to accomplish even compressive stress in the rim using a skip spoke scheme.

[nfmisso]

(11-24-2013, 03:42 PM)WinterRider Wrote:  Rather than the meaningless banter which is the norm here... please explain WHY:

"There is no way to accomplish even compressive stress in the rim using a skip spoke scheme."

Gotta hear this one.

feel free to draw your own free body diagram to show why.

[Joe_W]

(11-23-2013, 05:33 PM)WinterRider Wrote:  " lubricate the bend end of the spokes and the nipples with light oil, I use Tri-Flow."

Some do this.. not a good idea. Facilitates spokes shaking loose NDS rears.

Most do this. It is good practice to lube the threads, otherwise you will not be able to bring the spoke to full tension because you get too much torsion and / or shear off the spoke end. You could use one of the lighter variants of lock tite, but to be honest: If the spokes shake loose it is undertensioned = not built correctly.

Quote:"spoke failure is usually (99+% of the time) due to low tension."

Your analysis is mostly is ok.. just the occurrence is well off the mark. Most breakage is inbound NDS spokes rears.. which goes to elbow angle (ie: their design), spoke angle, one or more spoke over-tensioned, AND.. loose/undertensioned spokes.

Overtension is almost never a problem. In my experience on rear wheels it is The Dreaded Chain Drop that causes most damage, then undertension (spoke elbows brake due to undertension and missing "stress relieving"), followed by torsion (sheared off at the thread). Please read the literature by wheelbuilders or spoke companies like Sapim or DT.

Quote:Just a flyer.. here's a wheel I developed. NDS tension is 95% of DS/Drive side. Just a hybrid 36H w/o the extra 8 NDS spokes that really do nothing way.. just make average tension for 18 low enough to shake loose.

It is extremely bad practice (verging on dangerous) to build a wheel with leaving out spokes. If the NDS spokes shake loose due to low tension the whole wheel is undertensioned! If you cannot bring it up to good tension it can be because you use no lubricant on the spoke threads.
There are some experimental patterns like building a wheel crows foot on one side regular cross two on the other to even out tension - if this really was some magic way, everybody would be doing it. If you get a wheel from a pro, it will most likely be built good old cross three (or cross four... or cross two, depends on spoke count), maybe radial if it is a front wheel for rim brakes.

I build cross three (mostly) and ride down (short) stairs on a cyclocross bike. My wheels work quite well. I am not a pro.

---

(11-24-2013, 05:16 PM)WinterRider Wrote:  

(11-24-2013, 04:35 PM)nfmisso Wrote:  

(11-24-2013, 03:42 PM)WinterRider Wrote:  Rather than the meaningless banter which is the norm here... please explain WHY:

"There is no way to accomplish even compressive stress in the rim using a skip spoke scheme."

Gotta hear this one.

feel free to draw your own free body diagram to show why.

C'mon boy.. 'splain away.

But.. your over your head.

Please mind your language and attitude. Also do not post questionable / dangerous advice. Also please try to follow proper English grammar and use proper words so that everybody can follow. There are some non-native speakers out there. (Well, they are native speakers, just for some other language than English).

[1FJEF]

A builder I talked with told me he used fine oil at the head, threads and where the nipple turns against the rim during the build. He also said that for those who worried about the oil he would use Wheelsmith spoke prep, which supposedly acts like a lube until it sets and acts a bit like super weak loctite.
I think Fractal should start on the front wheel.

[nfmisso]

Agree on doing the front first - easier due to symmetry.

I dip the bend of the spoke, and the whole nipple in Triflow - doing the whole nipple gets both the threads and the rim interface I thread the outside end of the nipple onto a bent old spoke for dipping, and use it as a tool to start the nipple onto the spoke. I crushed the threads of the old spoke about 2½ - 3 threads up, so that it can only go a little way into the nipple.

I am not a fan of thread locking for precision applications - which comes from the hard disk drive experience; just torque things properly and they will not come loose.

[DaveM]

(11-25-2013, 09:35 PM)nfmisso Wrote:  Triflow

Why not something like bearing grease? Seems like it would last longer and prevent corrosion, lubricate as well if not better.

I've used the wheelsmith spoke prep stuff and really liked it, though the time/cost factors kind of weigh against it.

[nfmisso]

Hi Dave;

TriFlow is an oil with a solvent carrier that evaporates, almost like a dry film system but not quite. Thus is coats all the surfaces evenly while dipping. Not much lubrication is required, just a little sliding during assembly. Regarding corrosion - not an issue with stainless steel spokes and nickel plated brass nipples.

[Fractal]

Apologies for not responding for some time.

I am most likely going to pick up a used aluminum matte silver/black 2003 Specialized Allez Comp on Saturday. It has no wheels so I am going to be building the wheels now for this frame. I may go for black Shimano 105 hubs now, because the frame is already full of silver components.

I was going to buy the hubs, rims, spokes, and nipples over Black Friday/Cyber Monday but I will have to wait until late December/early January if I purchase the Allez.

I'll start with the front wheel then. I think I might go with the 36H front, since the 32H makes a fractional difference as Nigel has pointed out and save some cash. I'll be building the wheel at a local DIY bicycle repair shop, so I will have most of the proper tools for the job. I'll be sure to order some triflow. I am ready to spend hours on this task, but for now I'll keep reading up on the theory and these posts with great advice.

[Joe_W]

I also like Roger Musson's book, http://www.wheelpro.co.uk/wheelbuilding/book.php
I like his explanations but have not yet looked at the newest edition. You buy the book once (electronic document only) and get free updates. He also explains how to build your own truing stand and things like that.

[Fractal]

I bought the Specialized road bike frame (47cm) and couldn't wait to ride it so, I purchased a wheelset for it instead of building one.

My Peugeot Marseille light-touring conversion project still needs new wheels, and I will continue on my original mission to build new wheels for it. The frame is a 50cm frame and with the current 26 1 x 1 3/8 inch tires/wheels it fits me fine. When I place the 700c wheelset I purchased for my other bike on this bike I have to tip toe to not hit the top tupe.

Is it still safe to ride this way? Can I build a 650c wheelset instead? Or do I have to find another smaller frame (I would prefer not to do this)? If I do build the 650c would I have trouble finding tire replacements while touring?

Also, are Shimano 600 hubs good for building a touring wheelset instead of the Tiagras I linked originally? Is a trip from San Francisco to Los Angeles considered light touring (5-8 days)?

Thanks and Happy New Year to all!

[nfmisso]

(01-01-2014, 06:46 AM)Fractal Wrote:  ....My Peugeot Marseille light-touring conversion project still needs new wheels, and I will continue on my original mission to build new wheels for it. The frame is a 50cm frame and with the current 26 1 x 1 3/8 inch tires/wheels it fits me fine. When I place the 700c wheelset I purchased for my other bike on this bike I have to tip toe to not hit the top tupe.

Is it still safe to ride this way? Can I build a 650c wheelset instead?
......
Also, are Shimano 600 hubs good for building a touring wheelset instead of the Tiagras I linked originally? Is a trip from San Francisco to Los Angeles considered light touring (5-8 days)?
....

First; lets use ISO size designations - much less confusing.

Currently you have ISO590 rims & tires on the Peugeot. Why do you want to change the size?

ISO590 - aka 590a, aka 26 x 1 3/8; tires are available at almost every Wal-Mart. In addition many of Schwalbe tires are available in this size http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004T0GCVI/
Amazon calls in 26 x 1.375 - but if you look it up on Schwalbe's site it is 37 x 590. http://www.schwalbetires.com/bike_tires/road_tires/marathon_420

Both my SR and Miyata 310 currently have ISO590 rims and tires - CR18 rims in both case, the SR has Suzue hubs (premium cartridge bearing touring hubs from the '80s), the 310 has Shimano.

37mm wide tires are nice for touring.

Next size choice is ISO584 - aka 650b, aka 27.5" These tires are a bit harder to find in local stores, but Amazon does have them, and Schwalbe offers them in 44mm wide for touring.

The worst choice for touring is ISO571 - aka 650c. The widest tire that I was able to find is a Terry 28-571 specially made by Panaracer
http://www.terrybicycles.com/Accessories/tires-tubes-1/tellus-pt-tire-x-c-
My SR used to have them - GREAT tires, but they were $45- each and when I got a large nail thru the center of the tread (and liner and tr tube); I did an economic analysis and measurements, and changed the SR to ISO590 rims. Given that they are now on sale for $24-; and Harris is out of stock; I would be worried about them being discontinued.

571 tires are generally 20 to 25 mm wide - not recommended for touring. Even 28 is really narrow for touring.

Recommendation - stay with ISO590.

Hubs: Shimano are okay.

Velo Orange are much better for touring:
http://www.amazon.com/Velo-Orange-Grand-Cru-Touring/dp/B005XGAP38/
http://www.amazon.com/Velo-Orange-Grand-Cru-Flange/dp/B005V7NA0Y/

If you spread the frame to 135mm OLD; I really like these:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B006EPPLXG/
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004MEWSNW/
with their matching front hubs.

Velocity also has nice hubs with cartridge bearing.

As does Miche http://www.wiggle.co.uk/miche-primato-pair-of-road-hubs/

SF to LA is light touring; SF to NYC is not.