Falcon 7spd Freewheel removal

[Oleg]

Guys,
I need help (hopefully a little) with Falcon 7spd Freewheel removal.
The nut on Freewheel side won’t budge.
As a result FR-7 cannot be inserted completely, there is a gap about 3 to 5 mm (0.11811 0.19685 inch)
I don’t even know how far FR-7 should do into Freewheel.
I tried unscrew (counter-clockwise) Freewheel itself (without fully inserted FR-7)
Don’t want to apply too much strength.
I have a feeling already (I see it actually), spokes bend, but Freewheel won’t budge.
Do I need to secure sprockets set somehow and try a wrench with longer handle?

Or do I need to remove the nut on Freewheel side first?
I tried WD-40 on nut, waited 30min – no difference, it won’t go.
I secured another side with counter-nuts, but no luck.
Counter-nuts are moving, not the nut I want to remove.
The axle thread size is really small (IMO!), I feel if I put a bit more strength to secure counter-nuts, I’ll damage threads...

One more thing I want to mention:
I can remove nut and race nut on the side opposite to Freewheel (and bearing balls)
It won’t release an axle.
The outer plate (with name "Falcon" on it) inner diameter is smaller than race nut on Freewheel side.


There is a thread with similar question: http://forums.bikeride.com/thread-1674.html
I cannot follow Bill advice in post #7 "to take off race nut and remove the loose bearings from Freewheel side". Or might be, I simply don’t understand, how he did it.


Anyway, here I’m am waiting advice how to proceed.
Appreciate any input.

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[FredS]

I have had a few real stubborn ones to get off to, I had a 1\2" breaker bar and socket got a good grip on the wheel and stepped on the bar and hoped for the best, I have not bent or broke anything yet but I know it can happen.

[Oleg]

FredS,
How many people you need for "unscrew Freewheel by stepping on the bar method"?

I was wondering, is there a way to use penetrants or lubricants to help loosen stubborn Freewheel?
I know where the threads supposed to be, but there is no way spray lubricant anywhere close.
Am I wrong?

>Have fun and just enjoy the ride
That’s exactly why I came here

[Joe_W]

Freewheels can be stubborn. I used to clamp the tool in a vise and use the wheel as the lever, a 60cm lever is better than a 15 cm one. It makes it also easier to keep everything aligned. As for my experience there was no need to remove the axle nuts (but I did only have Campagnolo freewheels, the last one broke couple of years ago and I since moved up to 9 speed).

[FredS]

(06-13-2013, 12:05 AM)Oleg Wrote:  FredS,
How many people you need for "unscrew Freewheel by stepping on the bar method"?

I was wondering, is there a way to use penetrants or lubricants to help loosen stubborn Freewheel?
I know where the threads supposed to be, but there is no way spray lubricant anywhere close.
Am I wrong?

>Have fun and just enjoy the ride
That’s exactly why I came here

He He, Just me, I do not have a vise at this time and yes the bar has had a mind of it’s own a few times.

[nfmisso]

A big bench voice is invaluable for this, and the bench needs to be strong, heavy and bolted down.

[DaveM]

It's odd that you can't slide the axle out after removing the locknut and cone from the other side.

It looks like you are getting pretty good tool engagement with the freewheel. More is always better, but I think you're OK to crank on it a bit harder. Seeing the spokes flex a little when you try to remove the freewheel isn't unusual and I doubt it'll hurt anything if you crank harder. That said, I have seen a wheel destroyed when trying to remove a stuck freewheel. If the spokes are loose, tightening them up should help protect the wheel.

Putting the freewheel tool into a vise and using the wheel itself for leverage is better because you can push at two opposing points which keeps the force straighter. But you go to do what you got to do...

[budstutor]

Using the bench vise works best for me. Apply a stronger penetrant than WD-40 and let it sit overnight.
As mentioned previous, lock the FR-7 in the vise and use both hands on opposite sides of the wheel. I have best luck in using "pops" instead of just prressure. There is a little play in the wheel, back is off and then turn counter clockwise iwith a quick popping motion. (popping may be a bad way to describe, maybe a quick snap or something)
Using the penetrating lubricant and then popping like this usually does the trick after a few attempts. Good luck. Some can be on there pretty tight.

[Oleg]

Guys,
Thanks a lot for your help – I’ve using longer wrench handle (aka pipe) and it did the trick.

Vise was one my favorite tools when I was a kid.
I live in rented tiny apartments now

Anyway, freewheel is removed now.
Since I used WD40, I had contaminated bearing lubricant and need to replace it.
I’ve removed axel and all nuts and found both race nuts show a bit of wear.
(I’m not even sure I call all nuts right, please correct me if I’m wrong)

Obviously, need to replace both race nuts.

I have few questions (might be completely idiotic, sorry)
I’ve measured race nut and axel...
Are they measured in metric or imperial units?

Race nut inner/outer diameter - 16.9/8.8 mm (0.665354/0.346457 inches)
Height: freewheel side - 14.0mm, opposite to freewheel 11.0mm

Axel diameter (over threads) 9.35mm (0.3681102 inches)

Ball diameter (from bearing ) 6.35mm (0.25 inches)

Where is it better to buy race nuts?
Are they are same for Falcon and Shimano axel?
Is it better to buy whole set (axel, bearing and all nuts)?

The ring around nut – it come off the freewheel side nut easily, but holds steady on another one.
Are they come with race nuts or I need to buy them separately?

I need to buy a slim wrench for race nut (size 15mm)
How it is called (don’t even know what do I need to search for)?

Last question:
The ratchet inside freewheel – I guess, WD40 got there too.
Do I have to replace ratchet lubricant too?


Back to the beginning of story.
My son broke few spokes on freewheel side.
I thought how difficult it’ll be to replace them?
Somebody told me, it might be easier to replace whole wheel and I laughed.
Was I wrong?

Thanks for bearing with me.

[nfmisso]

broke a few spokes ?? Means that all of the spokes most likely (90+% chance) need to be replaced. There are several discussions on here about wheel building/rebuilding.

freewheel - WD40 inside - replace the freewheel. http://www.amazon.com/SunRace-Freewheels-7spd-13-28-Freewheel/dp/B002FB2Y88/ I have had two Shimano freewheels where the sprocket spacing was off, all the Sunrace freewheels that I have had are good.

race nuts = cones or bearing cones.

there are a few "standard" axle sizes, from your measurement, you probably have a 3/8" x 24 tpi or 3/8" x 26 tpi. (tpi = threads per inch) M10 x1 is also standard. Get something like this:
http://www.amazon.com/Wheel-Master-Rear-Hub-Axle/dp/B0063R2ORG/ which has all of the parts, and if you are lucky will work with the bearing races in the hub.

That said, you should look at the bearing races in the hub, if they are too far worn, you need a new hub, the races are not replaceable in the vast majority of hubs.

Falcon does not make hubs, and it is probably not a Shimano hub. More like Joytech or another company.

Thin wrenches are call cone wrenches, they are fragile. I have these: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00165P53K/
They should only be used on wheel bearing cones.

Spokes - many different ones, and they come in length increments of 2mm (and sometimes 1mm). I use Wheelsmith only. Spokes are $1- each or so at local bike shops for 2.0mm (14 gauge); or about $25- a bag of 50 from Amazon. Nipples are extra - nickel plated brass nipples are the way to go, and are less expensive.

Bearings - ¼" is standard for rear wheels with loose balls - of course there are exceptions. Make sure all of the balls you use on each side of a wheel come from the same bag (lot). http://www.amazon.com/Sunlite-Bicycle-Loose-Ball-Bearings/dp/B0012LHL9O/

Grease: I use boat trailer wheel bearing grease for my wheels, BBs and headsets. I got it in the automotive section at Wal-Mart.

To answer your original question - yes it would have been cheaper to get a new wheel, but then there would probably be more broken spokes in the future. It is possible to build wheels that will almost never break spokes. I build my own wheels because standard machine built wheels have too many spoke failures, and well built wheels are very expensive - take a look at Peter White's prices.

[Oleg]

Nigel,
Thanks bro - lots of useful info.

(06-15-2013, 10:35 PM)nfmisso Wrote:  freewheel - WD40 inside - replace the freewheel

I didn’t put a lot WD40, actually was spraying on top nut one (1st picture in the very begging of this thread)
How long it’s going to hold and/or how do I know WD40 spoils lubricant?

And if I’m replacing freewheel – does all SunRace/Falcon/ Shimano "7spd 13-28 Freewheel" interchangeable (can be use one in-place or another)?
Freewheel removal key is different – I know it already.

(06-15-2013, 10:35 PM)nfmisso Wrote:  there are a few "standard" axle sizes, from your measurement, you probably have a 3/8" x 24 tpi or 3/8" x 26 tpi. (tpi = threads per inch) M10 x1 is also standard.

Indeed, mine is 3/8" x 26 tpi.
M10 x 1 axel diameter (over threads) should be closer to 9.75mm, right?

My axel set has different race nuts heights (freewheel side - 14.0mm, opposite to freewheel 11.0mm)
Looks like every axel set on Amazon has same race nuts height.
If I put short one on freewheel side, I won’t be able to reach it...

(06-15-2013, 10:35 PM)nfmisso Wrote:  http://www.amazon.com/Wheel-Master-Rear-Hub-Axle/dp/B0063R2ORG/ which has all of the parts, and if you are lucky will work with the bearing races in the hub. Wheel Master Rear Hub Axle Set - FM21 3/8" x 126 x 170mm

That’s 1st time in my life I see mix of metric and imperial units!

(06-15-2013, 10:35 PM)nfmisso Wrote:  Falcon does not make hubs, and it is probably not a Shimano hub. More like Joytech or another company.

Don’t want to test my luck with fitting bearing this time.
How do I measure my hub to buy right "Rear Hub Axle Set"?
Is there a manufacturer label somewhere on the hub?

Just checked hub one more time.
Is doesn’t show any wear (definitely not as much as race nuts)
Inner diameter 25.6mm
Inner diameter for dust cap 26.1mm
No sign of manufacturer label tho...

(06-15-2013, 10:35 PM)nfmisso Wrote:  Make sure all of the balls you use on each side of a wheel come from the same bag (lot)

All my balls are nice and shiny
The only problem, I mix balls from both sides.
I guess, it’s not a big deal, is it?

It’s probably WiKi pages somewhere with all answers I need.
The only problem – I cannot even put right questions to find it

Sorry for so many questions...

[1FJEF]

The left side in the picture is the freewheel side. You remove & reinstal the axle from the other side, the nut will reach. As stated you need cone wrenches.

You go to a local hardware store & thread the axle cones on to various bolts until you find the correct match. On an old wheel with that freewheel it is almost certainly easy to replace the axle a nfmisso stated & repack it with new grease & bearings. But be aware that new wheels are reasonably inexpensive, ($40-$60) & unless your son is abusive or heavy he should get good service from the wheel.
If you try to rebuild that wheel you will need some skill to relace, retension & true that rear wheel, nfmisso makes it sound fairly straightforward, but he is an engineer!
Are you in the United States?

[Oleg]

1FJEF,
Thanks for recommendations!

(06-16-2013, 04:29 AM)1FJEF Wrote:  The left side in the picture is the freewheel side. You remove & reinstal the axle from the other side, the nut will reach. As stated you need cone wrenches.

In my case, the dust cap is on race nut on both sides and fit into hub.
Hub has "sitting" (don’t know the right word, sorry) for dust caps and they fit really tight.
That very dust cap on freewheel doesn’t let axel go – it bumps into freewheel.
On your picture, freewheel side outermost nut is slim and dust caps supposed to fit into freewheel.
Again, in my case, it won’t be a tight fit and lots of dirt get into…
And rare fork doesn’t even have enough space on for that outermost nut...
On 2nd picture in the beginning of thread - there was 3-4mm difference only between nut and freewheel edge.

(06-16-2013, 04:29 AM)1FJEF Wrote:  If you try to rebuild that wheel you will need some skill to relace, retension & true that rear wheel, nfmisso makes it sound fairly straightforward, but he is an engineer!
Are you in the United States?

I’m in NYC

[nfmisso]

All Falcon, Sunrace, Shimano, Suntour (Maeda) freewheels have 1.375" x 24 tpi threads; as do most other currently sold. Where one will fit, the others will too.
http://sheldonbrown.com/freewheels.html

Wheel building is straight forward, but requires patience.
http://sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html