Shimano 105 problem

[Steadinski]

Greetings all, new to forum, bit of help required.

I have recently upgraded my Felt z95 from Shimano Tiagra cassette and rear derailleur to 105. I'm an amateur but have tinkered successfully with a few set ups, but this has got me stumped.

I've set the limit stops and B tension screw according to various instructionals, and cable tension appears ok. Shifting is fairly sweet but when I'm in large chairing and work up to the 3rd and 2nd largest sprocket the angle the chain sits at in the derailleur cage causes the whole rear mech to jump and grind. The chain is angled outward as if the RD has gone too far in. If I shift into the largest sprocket the RD catches the spokes. Interestingly the small chairing shifts fine throughout the cassette.

The RD isn't bent, I can't see it being the limit stops or cable tension but it didn't happen on my Tiagra set up. I know I shouldn't run with large front large rear but thought I'd get away with 2nd and 3rd largest rear sprockets.

Any ideas?

[Joe_W]

Maybe the chain is too short? Can the RD you got cope with the teeth difference you have on your drive train? Can you post a pic of how it looks when in large-large?

[Steadinski]

Thanks for the reply. The cassette was replaced like for like eg 11-28T admittedly from Sunrace to Shimano (mistake in my original post) and the RD was a short cage for short cage as well so I assumed chain length would remain the same. I'm off to work a night shift but I'll photo and post tomorrow for your inspection. If it helps, when I set the high limit the top jockey wheel seems to sit slightly outward to get a clean crank on the smallest sprocket. If I try and line things up it crunches against the 2nd sprocket.

[Joe_W]

(04-23-2013, 04:27 PM)Steadinski Wrote:  [ ... ]
The cassette was replaced like for like eg 11-28T admittedly from Sunrace to Shimano
[ ... ]
If I try and line things up it crunches against the 2nd sprocket.

The "upper" jockey wheel against the 2nd largest sprocket? This sounds like you need to move the dérailleur further away from the cassette (B tension screw). What size (teeth) are your chain rings?

If it is a new one, type RD-5700-SS, the max. number of teeth it can manage is 28, so that means you are in the clear. The capacity is 33T and the biggest difference in the front is 16T. For anyting more than that you need the RD-R700-GS (39T capacity).

[Steadinski]

Hey Joe W,

Probably my poor description of the problem, but I mean when I set the high stop so the RD is hanging directly below the smallest sprocket, it rubs against the second smallest sprocket. I can then either tighten the H screw to get a smoother crank but this ultimately causes the chain to shift to the second sprocket or I can loosen it but this gives me the increased angle and the whole RD, chain etc. goes out of line.

The chain ring is a 50/34, I did the calculations before I ordered the new RD to make sure a SS would be ok, and came to the conclusion as you have - it is indeed the new 5700-SS.

Thanks for your help.

[Joe_W]

Tighten the B screw until it is far away enough so this doesn't happen? Or maybe you need to remove one link from the chain? Does it rub only when in small-small? Can you post pics of the bike with the chain in small-small so that we can see that? I just tried to picture this in my head, but I draw a blank. The diameters of the smallest and next-to-smallest sprockets do not differ by much.

I got confused 'cause you wrote something about the dérailleur catching the spokes above...

[Steadinski]

I'm confusing myself! Really appreciate your thoughts and time with this.

If I set things up according to common advice, when I shift whilst on the largest chainring to the largest sprocket the inner edge of the RD catches on the spokes. The second largest sprocket is very clunky, but doesn't catch the spokes, the third less so and and the fourth runs fine. The 'clunk' as I call it appears to be caused by the angle that the chain runs through the RD, almost going across the cage, cetainly way off straight.

In small front/large rear this doesn't happen, andit runs like a dream up and down the cassette.

I'm wondering if I do need to add a link to the chain to accomodate use of the large chainring and the 2nd/3rd largest sprockets (ignoring going large/large). But then I wonder why I should have to add links when I have replaced like for like, other than the brand. Are Shimano cassettes bigger than Sunrace despite the number of teeth being the same?

I should really be thinking about going to bed when I finish this night shift but this is bugging me so much I'm considering staying up to try and fix it!

[haykong]

(04-24-2013, 12:51 AM)Steadinski Wrote:  I'm confusing myself! Really appreciate your thoughts and time with this.

If I set things up according to common advice, when I shift whilst on the largest chainring to the largest sprocket the inner edge of the RD catches on the spokes. The second largest sprocket is very clunky, but doesn't catch the spokes, the third less so and and the fourth runs fine. The 'clunk' as I call it appears to be caused by the angle that the chain runs through the RD, almost going across the cage, cetainly way off straight.

In small front/large rear this doesn't happen, andit runs like a dream up and down the cassette.

I'm wondering if I do need to add a link to the chain to accomodate use of the large chainring and the 2nd/3rd largest sprockets (ignoring going large/large). But then I wonder why I should have to add links when I have replaced like for like, other than the brand. Are Shimano cassettes bigger than Sunrace despite the number of teeth being the same?

I should really be thinking about going to bed when I finish this night shift but this is bugging me so much I'm considering staying up to try and fix it!

Assuming you have the correct chain length. I'm wondering if your rear derailleur hanger is slight bent which can give the problems you are describing with the 2nd and 3rd largest sprockets.

have you checked the chain length? break your chain and wrap it on the largest cog on rear and largest on front. You should have at least two extra links after you wrap it around. Make sure you don't run the chain through any derailleurs. If you check it, at least we can rule that out as a problem.

So you went from 11-28 sunrace to 11-28 shimano? 9 speed right?

yeah I recall on my sister's bike or a friends bike which the rear derailleur bottom end hit the spokes when at the largest sprocket and also had shifting issues with the last 2-3 largest gears on the rear. Turns out the rear derailleur hanger was slightly bent.

At this point, I'm pretty sure that it's a rear derailleur hanger issue where it's slightly off... I would say 90% sure....given the description you gave me.

You can verify that with the rear derailleur alignment tool.. but note it only works if your rear wheel is true.

note: If it turns out that the rear derailleur hanger is slightly bent and after you get it aligned, you'll need to re-do the limiters since things would have been shifted again.

It's possible you could have bent the rear derailleur hanger when you installed the new 105 derailleur or the tiagara derailleur was more forgiving with a slightly bent derailleur. .. who knows.. at this point I would check for alignment.

[Steadinski]

Thanks Haykong. It's a 10 speed set up but the cassette is the same. Or so I thought. Just had a friend take a look who was the man in the LBS until a career change. He identified that the sunrace/suntour cassette had little bumps on the back which pushed it out from the hub creating a straighter chain line. The shimano sits flush against the hub increasing the angle and rendering the largest sprocket unusable (happy that's the case anyway) and the second largest sprocket quite clunky. He's managed to adjust the limit stops so that it runs sweet up until the second largest but like he says if I change to small chainring and shift down a couple I'll be in the equal or similar speed anyway.

The hanger looks pretty straight to me although a gentle tweak of the RD pulled the whole RD a little more true.

The irony of this whole process is that I upgraded the mech etc to achieve a smoother shift, but have ended up with a less usable set up at the back!

I wonder if I can use this situation to convince my wife that I need a whole new bike?

[haykong]

(04-24-2013, 11:41 AM)Steadinski Wrote:  Thanks Haykong. It's a 10 speed set up but the cassette is the same. Or so I thought. Just had a friend take a look who was the man in the LBS until a career change. He identified that the sunrace/suntour cassette had little bumps on the back which pushed it out from the hub creating a straighter chain line. The shimano sits flush against the hub increasing the angle and rendering the largest sprocket unusable (happy that's the case anyway) and the second largest sprocket quite clunky. He's managed to adjust the limit stops so that it runs sweet up until the second largest but like he says if I change to small chainring and shift down a couple I'll be in the equal or similar speed anyway.

The hanger looks pretty straight to me although a gentle tweak of the RD pulled the whole RD a little more true.

The irony of this whole process is that I upgraded the mech etc to achieve a smoother shift, but have ended up with a less usable set up at the back!


I wonder if I can use this situation to convince my wife that I need a whole new bike?

Even if you eye ball the RD hanger and it may look straight to you, it might not be straight. If its just slightly off by a mm or two... It can mess with indexed shifting.

Only really way to verify is get your friend that worked at the LBS.. To check it with the park tool hanger alignment tool and then adjust it ...

Sometimes even if you buy a new hanger... They do come from factory slightly off.

Again.. Just eyeballing it is not the best way to verify...

---

Oh hey read through this

http://www.parktool.com/blog/repair-help/rear-derailleur-hanger-alignment

[haykong]

(04-23-2013, 06:44 AM)Steadinski Wrote:  Greetings all, new to forum, bit of help required.

If I shift into the largest sprocket the RD catches the spokes. Interestingly the small chairing shifts fine throughout the cassette.

Any ideas?

Now I'm 150% sure that your rear derailleur hanger is the problem and slightly bent.

I quote and I quote from your problem

" If I shift into the largest sprocket the RD catches the spokes."

Yeah one of my friends bikes had that problem and I fixed it tonight since I knew exactly what that problem was... RD hanger slightly bent. So I used the Park RD Alignment tool and presto got it aligned and had to readjust the limiter screws afterwards. Then again I've gotten much faster in doing that now and can do it in about 5mins . On the other hand he had friction shifters, but still same concept.

Anyway like I said it's your RD hanger which is slight bent. I've adjust quite a bit of RD hangers from various bikes... and when you get perfect shifting in almost all the gears but a certain range like the last 3 in indexed shifting then it's RD hanger.

[Joe_W]

(04-24-2013, 11:41 AM)Steadinski Wrote:  Thanks Haykong. It's a 10 speed set up but the cassette is the same. Or so I thought. Just had a friend take a look who was the man in the LBS until a career change. He identified that the sunrace/suntour cassette had little bumps on the back which pushed it out from the hub creating a straighter chain line. The shimano sits flush against the hub increasing the angle and rendering the largest sprocket unusable (happy that's the case anyway) and the second largest sprocket quite clunky.

Argh! I overread this one. Shimano 10 speed cassettes need a small spacer installed on the freehub body! There you go, that's it (I guess), though it is always good to check the hanger alignment from time to time, but do not try to straighten it by pulling on the dérailleur!

[Steadinski]

Dude I have just ordered two Shimano 1mm spacers to bring the cassette out a tad. It makes the most sense, seeing as everything worked fine before I faffed around with it. I'm fairly confident the hanger is good although I take on board what Haykong says. I'll stick a spacer or two in and get back to you with the result. Just have to wait for the snail mail to drop through the door.