Bike shop labor charges

[Criminal]

I was searching some used bike sales and saw a mid 80's Bottecchia (mid range model). Seller (very unknowledgeable) thought it was a goldmine (I assumed he got it fairly cheap, stated as a "barn find"), and detailed the palmarès of the marque shown on the frame decals. I know this model was not part of that history, and this is a common practice to boast of past achievements and slap decals doing so on all models; otherwise I have many "champion/campione" frames. Given this assumption the seller had the bike serviced and put up for sale at $1295 (more than double its general value given the model and components). After months of no sale it is now available for $595 (he is getting closer to real value).
The problem arises for the seller from the fact he spent $225 on service and parts (great for the new potential owner) and now stands to only make $370 max profit on a bike worth about that price at the start before really needing much if any service. No problem, seller wanted to provide a properly functioning bike to a new owner without issues; perfect!
My question is this: are the itemized labor charges (not parts) reasonable? I find the total labor at least one and a half times over cost for the work done and the time it would take a shop to perform on a bike in decent shape in the first place. I am not a bike mechanic, but I find $15 for basic front derailleur service (adjust hi/low screws, cable slack) to be outrageous. I can do that work in less than 5 minutes without rushing the job, and I do not do it as a profession.
I am providing a copy of the receipt (the seller did in their ad, I assume to justify cost and prove new parts added and work done).
Please provide your opinion if you think service costs are reasonable or too high (total labor $110).

[ReapThaWhirlwind]

Some shops charge by the hour, rated at like 25~35 bucks (engineers pay).

[Criminal]

(09-16-2021, 06:26 PM)ReapThaWhirlwind Wrote:  Some shops charge by the hour, rated at like 25~35 bucks (engineers pay).

I certainly understand hourly charges after having run a brick and mortar shop (sales and service) myself. There are many expenses to cover; I believe I had about 12 different local, State, and Federal taxes and fees to pay on a monthly to yearly basis, not including workers comp. and business insurance. I determined my charges based on volume of service which was hard to do as a start-up, but you have to be competitive right at that the start so always tried to give a better rate than those established businesses in the same market; in the end I only raised my charges up $5 an hour after 5 years (still beating the competition).
For the work described on the receipt (no bearing overhauls) it seems that the individual was taken for a ride. I have done all of that work on multiple bikes of the same style and it would not take me over an hour and a half (more like an hour); the most time consuming would be the bar wrap since I seem to end up doing it twice after not being satisfied with the first attempt.
I would have no problem paying $30-$35 for that work, and I doubt that I would cringe at $50; but over $100 to me seems like a joke. If I knew what shop it was I would contact them and ask a few questions regarding their charges. When getting a bunch of minor work done (very basic "tune-up") it should be a package deal, especially with the shop getting another $100 in parts sales. The last person asking me to do that type of work was given a $25 estimate plus parts; but I have no overhead except a quality beer.

One note about the bike: I have the same bike purchased about 5 or 6 years ago for $190; entry level Campy 980 mechs, Modolo Corsa brake set, OFMEGA Mundial crankset, etc. Columbus "Aelle" frame. Certainly with new tires, chain, and bar wrap I would have no problem going another $100; but getting over $400 will be hard except to the uninitiated. I expect to see that bike on sale for a while until the price drops under $500 which will be a hard pill for the seller to swallow after his parts and service expenditure.

[ReapThaWhirlwind]

I fix my own bikes for free.

Only things I need from the shops are technical or aesthetic.

[Criminal]

(09-16-2021, 10:07 PM)ReapThaWhirlwind Wrote:   I fix my own bikes for free.

Only things I need from the shops are technical or aesthetic.

I also work on my bikes, autos, motorbikes, etc.; but most folks, even those with the know how, have the work done for them. That still does not make it right to overcharge for extremely basic service taking a minimum of time to complete. Granted there are always extenuating circumstances, but I am speaking of the general mean.

You are obviously not an engineer; my engineering rates are $50-$100/hr (are considered to be low!); but there is high overhead and liability insurance factors involved. Even then I am regularly the low bidder on a contract.

[Criminal]

I would be happy to remove your old chain and install a new chain for $15. Works out to about $75/hour labor charge and I do not need a college education to learn how to do it. I am in the wrong game! Plus I made a profit selling you a new chain.

[Papa Dom]

so it adds up to $110 for labor, hmm. @Criminal in your opinion (estimated or educated guess), how much time did it take the mechanic to complete those nine tasks? I believe I have seen a guy complete both derailleur adjustment, both tire repair or change, and both brake adjustment within half an hour ...

[ReapThaWhirlwind]

Support your local bike shop

[Criminal]

(09-20-2021, 03:03 PM)Papa Dom Wrote:  so it adds up to $110 for labor, hmm. @Criminal in your opinion (estimated or educated guess), how much time did it take the mechanic to complete those nine tasks? I believe I have seen a guy complete both derailleur adjustment, both tire repair or change, and both brake adjustment within half an hour ...

I would say that you are about spot on considering it was in a shop and presumably the proper tools were readily available (they are at my co-op), but I would even allow for 45 mins tops just in case there was cause for delay. I know myself doing the work on both derailleurs is about 5 mins. total; brakes maybe 5-10 mins. if finicky; tire and tube change 10-15 mins.; bar wrap for me (because I take a bit of time) one shot completed 5-10 mins.; chain removal/replacement 5 mins w/o master link (less with master link). So 30-45 mins. if I did that work on that particular bike (1980's Italian racer). If it took me an hour then I stopped to use the restroom and have a cold beer.

I do support my local bike shops, but I have not used them for maintenance in decades; only parts purchases. Many do not even know how to work on a Sturmey-Archer hub so that is often a lost cause; also many do not have the older tools required to do some maintenance (Maillard helicomatic tool for example) on earlier components.

[jeffg]

I know this is an older thread however I have to speak out here. The labor being charged is called flat rate labor. If you had come to the shop and requested only a front derilleur adjustment the charge is 10 bucks. Not an overcharge by any means. Subsequently each item addressed on this particular work order has a flat rate attached to it. This is the same as any service shop doing routine tasks. If an adjustment takes 5 minutes or 15 minutes the labor charge is the same, and is the most straight forward method to estimate labor charges when creating a work order. If done by the hour and the rate were 100 bucks per hour the singular job might have cost more.
Automotive and motorcycle shops have used this labor rating method as well.

[Jesper]

I will speak on this as well since I ran a service/repair shop(s) and am I quite familiar with "flat rate" labor costs. If a customer was requiring an estimate I would use flat rate charges in order not to be at a loss if certain service or repairs actually did take the amount of time that was estimated for the flat rate charge. On the other hand, "flat rate" charges can be modified to fit the actual work done. If My charge was going to be higher than that reflected by my initial estimate I would contact the customer before performing the work so that they could refuse to have it done before I wasted any time going beyond my initial estimate and having to deal with a customer who would not pay due to it being higher than on the estimate; but if my work was able to be accomplished in a lesser time and without expected parts replacement, I would reduce the charge for that service to reflect the actual labor required to perform it. I would have to say that the customer on the example shown was indeed overcharged for some of the work and the shop's flat rate charge on the paid bill was not adjusted for the actual time and labor involved for all the items listed. I have serviced bikes, autos, and appliances. My business relied on the fact that the customer got what they paid for not what the highest estimate would provide to me as additional profit. That is probably why I had a great clientele base and outstanding word of mouth references. Granted I probably lost or broke even on a few (very few) repairs, but in general I covered my time and materials without any problem and more often than not billed the customer for less than the initial estimate which was based on flat rate charges.

[Criminal]

(09-16-2021, 10:07 PM)ReapThaWhirlwind Wrote:   I fix my own bikes for free.

Only things I need from the shops are technical or aesthetic.

(09-20-2021, 10:38 PM)ReapThaWhirlwind Wrote:   Support your local bike shop

Here is an old thread that needs clarification if we are going to resurrect the past. One that received contraditory replies.

So you fix your "own bikes for free" and in doing so you support your local bike shop?? This whole thread is about maintenance and repair costs. If you fix your own bikes and never ran a business then how are your comments pertinent.
I must assume then that you readily pay the shop for their technical advice. What rate do you pay them by: dollars per word, dollars per second?

Jesper is correct; this site has become perverse.

Be safe out there cyclists!

I tender my resignation. Goodbye.

By the way; a CENTURY and a double CENTURY are done in one day, not one month. Many women and children have done them. Let us know when you catch up.

---

As a final note that actually pertains to this thread. The bike in question disappeared from the sales listings with the last price at $375 when I checked. I do not know if it sold for that price, but I am fairly confident that the buyer did not pay more than the listed price. As I stated; the seller over paid for service on a bike that was assumed to be well above its value. I doubt the seller would have dumped over $200 into a bike they thought would only fetch $300-$400 even if they got it for free (but at least he made some $); but what do I know (business owner, engineer, service technician, 40+ years cycling/bike repairing, multi-century ride completions up to 150 miles a day, project cost estimator, etc., etc., etc.).

[Rasmus]

(11-01-2022, 12:16 PM)Criminal Wrote:  

(09-16-2021, 10:07 PM)ReapThaWhirlwind Wrote:   I fix my own bikes for free.

Only things I need from the shops are technical or aesthetic.

(09-20-2021, 10:38 PM)ReapThaWhirlwind Wrote:   Support your local bike shop

Here is an old thread that needs clarification if we are going to resurrect the past. One that received contraditory replies.

So you fix your "own bikes for free" and in doing so you support your local bike shop?? This whole thread is about maintenance and repair costs. If you fix your own bikes and never ran a business then how are your comments pertinent.
I must assume then that you readily pay the shop for their technical advice. What rate do you pay them by: dollars per word, dollars per second?

Jesper is correct; this site has become perverse.

Be safe out there cyclists!

I tender my resignation. Goodbye.

By the way; a CENTURY and a double CENTURY are done in one day, not one month. Many women and children have done them. Let us know when you catch up.

---

As a final note that actually pertains to this thread. The bike in question disappeared from the sales listings with last at $375 when I checked. I do not know if it sold for that price, but I am fairly confident that the buyer did not pay more than the listed price. As I stated; the seller over paid for service on a bike that was assumed to be well above its value. I doubt the seller would have dumped over $200 into a bike they thought would only fetch $300-$400 even if they got it for free (but at least the made some $); but do I know (business owner, engineer, service technician, 40+ years cycling/bike repairing, multi-century ride completions up to 150 miles a day, project cost estimator, etc., etc., etc.).

Hi Criminal,

I'm not very active in terms of writing in the forum, but I have been seeing your posts for the past two years and always enjoy reading them, and have learned a lot from them. We are sad to see both you and Jesper leave at the same time, as you have both been an important part of the forum and help many people with their questions. Our goal is try to make the forum more active, to get more useful and interesting cycling topics/discussions for everyone. However, I realize we might mistakes when we try to improve the site and work on getting new members.

Would you be able to give us some feedback on how you think we should improve the forum to make it a better place? Is there anything we at BikeRide could do that would make you reconsider staying on the forum?

Thank you,
Kevin

[Painkiller]

I would hate to see people leave this site too Kevin, when I see a thread such as this, I see a writing about someone paying shop rate on a bicycle repair thinking that labor rates should be applied to the value of a bike for sale. I have sold many 20yr old bikes for more than they cost when new, and why? or how? one may ask. It is not because I talked the buyer into paying for my labor throughout the build by any stretch of the imagination. It is because of doing a high quality refurb of the truest meaning of the word. The only formula I use is simply everything is rated at 95%+ perfect, all mods or parts replacements are equal to or better than original and of era when it needs to be, and never ever settle for anything else

[TomC]

(09-16-2021, 08:41 PM)Criminal Wrote:  

(09-16-2021, 06:26 PM)ReapThaWhirlwind Wrote:  Some shops charge by the hour, rated at like 25~35 bucks (engineers pay).

I certainly understand hourly charges after having run a brick and mortar shop (sales and service) myself.

Part of the problem with the labor charges on that receipt is the notion of "itemizing" labor charges -- especially on small jobs. This smells like a $10 minimum labor charge for any work.

Assuming a competent mechanic in a properly equipped shop, and no unusual issues, that receipt seems to indicate labor being charged at about $50-60/hour - which feels outrageous. The $15 entries bothered me more than the $10 entries -- especially $15 for just installing the chain.

On the other hand, as you point out, no brick&mortar bike shop can afford to pay its overhead from any reasonable labor rate unless they have a dozen or so mechanics all actually busy working full time. The cost of simply having a shop is more than what the labor itself is worth.

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(11-02-2022, 09:24 AM)Kevin.J Wrote:  

(11-01-2022, 12:16 PM)Criminal Wrote:  Jesper is correct; this site has become perverse.

I tender my resignation. Goodbye.

Would you be able to give us some feedback on how you think we should improve the forum to make it a better place? Is there anything we at BikeRide could do that would make you reconsider staying on the forum?

My personal opinion, based on over forty years of participating in and running online discussion sites, is that the appropriate reaction to anyone who says they are leaving a forum because they didn't like what someone said would be "Don't let the door hit you on your way out" -- in nearly every case, the departure of such individuals improves the forum.

That opinion assumes that the forum is lightly moderated and that the administrators remove any abusive trolls.

I have not seen any trolling in this thread, so any fault lies with the thin-skinned user who got his feelings hurt.

Even before the Internet came into being, there were a few international networked forums -- the largest of those forums was based on two simple rules that would equally apply to any discussion forum today:
1) Don't be excessively annoying.
and
2) Don't be too easily annoyed.

Today we are all suffering from an entire generation unable to live by those two rules (especially #2).

[Painkiller]

amen, to that!