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60s Viner Repainted..?
#1
Have the opportunity to get a great deal on a 60s Viner from a coworker who’s uncle passed away. The frame looks repainted to me, but the person in charge of the estate swears it never was. What do you all think? And how would repainting affect the value? Thanks! ***THOUGHT I POSTED PICS WITH THIS ORIGINAL POST. VIEW PICS IN REPLIES BELOW...STILL NEW HERE!!***
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#2
(07-04-2020, 05:32 PM)ajsommer Wrote:  Have the opportunity to get a great deal on a 60s Viner from a coworker who’s uncle passed away. The frame looks repainted to me, but the person in charge of the estate swears it never was. What do you all think? And how would repainting affect the value? Thanks!
How about some photos, especially close up?
If I knew how to ride a bike properly, I'd do it every time.
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#3
(07-04-2020, 05:32 PM)ajsommer Wrote:  Have the opportunity to get a great deal on a 60s Viner from a coworker who’s uncle passed away. The frame looks repainted to me, but the person in charge of the estate swears it never was. What do you all think? And how would repainting affect the value? Thanks!

Welcome "aj",

As Charley stated photos would be nice, but regardless you SHOULD NOT repaint (if original paint) unless the frame is fairly heavily rusted and it would go towards preserving the frame to prevent further degradation. Most minor rust can be arrested, and covered either by a small application of a "clear coat" or some minor touch-up paint (if able to match the patina color of the aged paint) after careful cleaning (usually mild soap and water, careful around any existing decals). Avoid solvents (alcohol, petroleum distillate, etc.) unless you are experienced regarding old painted finishes. There is no clear coat on older frames, and old decals are easily damaged from excessive water. I have vast experience with bikes from the 50s and newer as well as earlier models. I am presently working on a 1936 Baggi French frame (starting condition is shown on the site). I have an early 70's Viner where the decals have been lost over the years, but I don't even feel the need to put on reproduction decals over the original paint. Overall the value is reduced anytime you remove what is original; the older it is, the better it is to keep it as original as possible regarding aesthetics and components. This is all coming from a "purist" and collectors standpoint. There are many bikes (as well as other items) in museums that could easily have been "restored", but are best left as is. There certainly is a level of restoration that will essentially keep an item in its original state while preventing further degradation/deterioration. You of course make the call. An early racing bike (or any older limited handmade item) is hard enough to find in any condition be it "restored" or not, but I consider an early "unrestored" example to be an accurate reference for others to base their research and identification of originality on.

Photos are of my unrestored Viner. I am building up a set of proper parts original to the year of manufacture; but otherwise for aesthetics I might only add proper period decals since there are none on it to provide a reference to others. I will not put on newer Viner decals just to badge the bike without regards to aesthetic accuracy.

Take care,
Jesper

   
   
Take care,
Jesper

"I am become Death, the destroyer of bicycles." NJS
  Reply
#4
           
(07-05-2020, 09:42 AM)CharleyFarley Wrote:  
(07-04-2020, 05:32 PM)ajsommer Wrote:  Have the opportunity to get a great deal on a 60s Viner from a coworker who’s uncle passed away. The frame looks repainted to me, but the person in charge of the estate swears it never was. What do you all think? And how would repainting affect the value? Thanks!
How about some photos, especially close up?

Sorry, I'm new here and thought I had posted a pic!

(07-05-2020, 12:49 PM)Jesper Wrote:  
(07-04-2020, 05:32 PM)ajsommer Wrote:  Have the opportunity to get a great deal on a 60s Viner from a coworker who’s uncle passed away. The frame looks repainted to me, but the person in charge of the estate swears it never was. What do you all think? And how would repainting affect the value? Thanks!

Welcome "aj",

As Charley stated photos would be nice, but regardless you SHOULD NOT repaint (if original paint) unless the frame is fairly heavily rusted and it would go towards preserving the frame to prevent further degradation. Most minor rust can be arrested, and covered either by a small application of a "clear coat" or some minor touch-up paint (if able to match the patina color of the aged paint) after careful cleaning (usually mild soap and water, careful around any existing decals). Avoid solvents (alcohol, petroleum distillate, etc.) unless you are experienced regarding old painted finishes. There is no clear coat on older frames, and old decals are easily damaged from excessive water. I have vast experience with bikes from the 50s and newer as well as earlier models. I am presently working on a 1936 Baggi French frame (starting condition is shown on the site). I have an early 70's Viner where the decals have been lost over the years, but I don't even feel the need to put on reproduction decals over the original paint. Overall the value is reduced anytime you remove what is original; the older it is, the better it is to keep it as original as possible regarding aesthetics and components. This is all coming from a "purist" and collectors standpoint. There are many bikes (as well as other items) in museums that could easily have been "restored", but are best left as is. There certainly is a level of restoration that will essentially keep an item in its original state while preventing further degradation/deterioration. You of course make the call. An early racing bike (or any older limited handmade item) is hard enough to find in any condition be it "restored" or not, but I consider an early "unrestored" example to be an accurate reference for others to base their research and identification of originality on.

Photos are of my unrestored Viner. I am building up a set of proper parts original to the year of manufacture; but otherwise for aesthetics I might only add proper period decals since there are none on it to provide a reference to others. I will not put on newer Viner decals just to badge the bike without regards to aesthetic accuracy.

Take care,
Jesper

Hey Jesper, I just posted some photos on the thread in response to Charles. Sorry, I thought I had posted some in the original post, but guess not. I'm new here, so still learning!
  Reply
#5
(07-04-2020, 05:32 PM)ajsommer Wrote:  Have the opportunity to get a great deal on a 60s Viner from a coworker who’s uncle passed away. The frame looks repainted to me, but the person in charge of the estate swears it never was. What do you all think? And how would repainting affect the value? Thanks! ***THOUGHT I POSTED PICS WITH THIS ORIGINAL POST. VIEW PICS IN REPLIES BELOW...STILL NEW HERE!!***

That is a big NO, and HECK NO regarding the repainting of that frame based in your photos (if original paint work). Even if a repaint, it looks to be of decent quality; "clean" piping on the lugs and filling of the cut-outs. Are there any decals other than the Columbus ones? I will say that your frame is far from being 60s vintage; more than likely post-mid 70s given the frame features l'm seeing (if frame is unmodified), and the newer Columbus decal (white dove, single wing; if correct even on a repaint). 60s bikes had clamp-on shifters, clamp-on top tube cable guides, and "nutted" mounting brakes not recessed with hex heads. Although there are some exceptions; having all these features point to about 1976/77 or later. Also, most mid 70s bikes and earlier had down tube clamp-on cable guides for the shift cables, clamp-on cable stop on the drive side chainstay, and no bottle cage mounting bosses (unseen in photos). If shift cables run under the bottom bracket shell, and the frame has 2 sets of bottle cage bosses, it is likely to be of early 80s vintage. Assuming Campagnolo parts, I would look at the rear derailleur, if an original Campagnolo "Nuovo Record" part, it would have "PAT. ##" indicating the last 2 digits for the year of manufacture for the component (e.g. PAT. 77 = 1977; this is not the manufacture year of the frame!). The Campagnolo cranks would also have a date code "<#>" (70s had diamond with digit for last number of year; e.g.<7> = 1977). It is QUITE COMMON for the date codes on parts to pre-date the year of the frame, most often by 1 year and at times 2 years. Frames were often sold without any components, and were built up by a bike shop or buyer with old stock components. I would assume that if all parts dated as 1977 that the frame was of 1977/78 vintage; again this all depends on parts being original to the frame. Of course late manufacture 1977 parts could end up on an early 1979 frame. Most Japanese components have date codes with month of manufacture also indicated making it a little easier to pinpoint the frame year. Another feature to help date the frame are the lug cut-outs; not sure when Viner started and stopped using "star" cut-outs, Chesini used them also at one time; my Viner has different lug cut-outs. One last feature to look for is a serial number. Most artisan Italian frames did not use serial numbers until the early to mid 80s and later. There could be "cryptic" numbers and/or letters having other meanings, often frame/seat tube size, lug numbers, etc.; but not a serial number or date code. I have a 70s frame with "71" stamped on the BB shell, definitely not the size! I discovered from the son of the builder that it was a paint code for when it was sent out to get finished. This is why I love these bikes; it's like solving a convoluted mystery, but given all the clues taken together you can usually get very close and sometimes spot on.

Take care,
Jesper
Take care,
Jesper

"I am become Death, the destroyer of bicycles." NJS
  Reply
#6
(07-05-2020, 07:13 PM)Jesper Wrote:  
(07-04-2020, 05:32 PM)ajsommer Wrote:  Have the opportunity to get a great deal on a 60s Viner from a coworker who’s uncle passed away. The frame looks repainted to me, but the person in charge of the estate swears it never was. What do you all think? And how would repainting affect the value? Thanks! ***THOUGHT I POSTED PICS WITH THIS ORIGINAL POST. VIEW PICS IN REPLIES BELOW...STILL NEW HERE!!***

That is a big NO, and HECK NO regarding the repainting of that frame based in your photos (if original paint work). Even if a repaint, it looks to be of decent quality; "clean" piping on the lugs and filling of the cut-outs. Are there any decals other than the Columbus ones? I will say that that your frame is far from being 60s vintage; more than likely post-mid 70s given the frame features l'm seeing (if frame is unmodified), and the newer Columbus decal (white dove, single wing; if correct even on a repaint). 60s bikes had clamp-on shifters, clamp-on top tube cable guides, and "nutted" mounting brakes not recessed with hex heads. Although there are some exceptions; having all these features point to about 1976/77 or later. Also, most mid 70s bikes and earlier had down tube clamp-on cable guides for the shift cables, clamp-on cable stop on the drive side chainstay, and no bottle cage mounting bosses (unseen in photos). If shift cables run under the bottom bracket shell, and the frame has 2 sets of bottle cage bosses, it is likely to be of early 80s vintage. Assuming Campagnolo parts, I would look at the rear derailleur, if an original Campagnolo "Nuovo Record" part, it would have "PAT. ##" indicating the last 2 digits for the year of manufacture for the component (e.g. PAT. 77 = 1977; this is not the manufacture year of the frame!). The Campagnolo cranks would also have a date code "<#>" (70s had diamond with digit for last number of year; e.g.<7> = 1977). It is QUITE COMMON for the date codes on parts to pre-date the year of the frame, most often by 1 year and at times 2 years. Frames were often sold without any components, and were built up by a bike shop or buyer with old stock components. I would assume that if all parts dated as 1977 that the frame was of 1977/78 vintage; again this all depends on parts being original to the frame. Of course late manufacture 1977 parts could end up on an early 1979 frame. Most Japanese components have date codes with month of manufacture also indicated making it a little easier to pinpoint the frame year. Another feature to help date the frame are the lug cut-outs; not sure when Viner started and stopped using "star" cut-outs, Chesini used them also at one time; my Viner has different lug cut-outs. One last feature to look for is a serial number. Most artisan Italian frames did not use serial numbers until the early to mid 80s and later. There could be "cryptic" numbers and/or letters having other meanings, often frame/seat tube size, lug numbers, etc.; but not a serial number or date code. I have a 70s frame with "71" stamped on the BB shell, definitely not the size! I discovered from the son of the builder that it was a paint code for when it was sent out to get finished. This is why I love these bikes; it's like solving a convoluted mystery, but given all the clues taken together you can usually get very close and sometimes spot on.

Take care,
Jesper

Thanks a ton for this super in depth reply! I think I will contact the seller and see if I can go back and take a closer look. Just to clarify, do you think it is original paint or has it been repainted? The seller claims the owner was extremely meticulous and after every ride would put the bike in the stand and clean it... Also, was able to get this photo from the seller...


Attached Files Image(s)
   
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#7
(07-05-2020, 08:58 PM)ajsommer Wrote:  Thanks a ton for this super in depth reply! I think I will contact the seller and see if I can go back and take a closer look. Just to clarify, do you think it is original paint or has it been repainted? The seller claims the owner was extremely meticulous and after every ride would put the bike in the stand and clean it... Also, was able to get this photo from the seller...

For some reason the whole bike profile picture did not load when I was viewing your post. Due to the condition of the paint, the matching color crankset and seat post flutes, as well as the red lug piping and lug cut-out fill-in; I would assume that the bike had been repainted. There does not seem to be any remnants of frame decals, usually the headbadge is still there due to that part not being used to handle the bike. The Columbus decals look nearly new. The previous owner may very well have been meticulous in caring for the bike, but was he indeed the original owner of it from brand new?
The general dates for the parts would indicate 1978 or later ('84 at the latest). The Nuovo Record front derailleur with 3 holes in the cage was introduced in 1978, the brake calipers with the "domed"/rounded release lever were introduced in 1978, the Super Record rear derailleur was introduced in 1978, and the Super Record seat post was supposedly introduced in the early '80s. Generally, the bike has a mix of Campagnolo Super Record, Nuovo Record, and Record parts. It is hard to tell which are which with the photos provided except: Super Record: headset, chainrings, rear derailleur, seat post; Nuovo Record: front derailleur; other parts may be any of those groups due to minor differences in features. The brake pads/holders are not original, nor are the pedals and saddle. I would be curious as to what the date codes are for the crank arms and the rear derailleur just to see if they are consistent with each other and to get an idea of the year of the frame with the "star" lug cut-outs. A note about the crank arm date codes; a single digit in a circle indicates 1980-1984 (e.g. "circle 4" = 1984); if two digits in a circle, it's 1985 or later ("11" = 1985, "22" = 1986, "33" = 1987, etc.). I doubt that this bike is post 1984. Just curious; what is the asking price on it, and is it your size? Looks to be about 58 cm using a seat tube measurement from center of the crank axle to the centerline of the top tube and seat tube intersection. Also, if you are getting this bike I would adjust that bar stem down a 1/2 inch or more; it is probably nearly at or above its maximum height. Possibly to give an older rider a more upright riding posture; but it could be dangerous and crack or break off if you really got on the bars for a climb and/or sprint. Look at my Viner height; it's not as high as it can go, but it wouldn't be much higher.

If you do get this bike, you will still have a classic in very good condition, with what would appear to be a nice mix of Campagnolo's two highest levels of components. I know I'd be interested in it if was in my area.
I still haven't figured out when they used the "stars" but I have seen late 70s frames that do not have them, essentially similar to my frame (circa '74) with "heart" like lug cut-outs.

My final guess is '79/'80 ('82 at the latest) without seeing those component date codes. Please fill me in with any further information you can glean. As a fair price without being able to test the bearings, etc.; but assuming everything functions fine (good looks doesn't mean good operation, unfortunately): I would say about $400-$500, partly due to the presumed repaint (although nice), missing decals, unknown rims (which appear concave, "non-aero"), and lower end (or possibly even cheap) replacement pedals. If everything was "correct" and "original" more like $700-$800. That's a little bit with me liking it overall, but I think $300 or so would be a steal if it is in good working order.

Take care,
Jesper
Take care,
Jesper

"I am become Death, the destroyer of bicycles." NJS
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#8
Jesper covered it nicely. I will jump in and agree that the frame sure looks repainted, no decals. Overall, elegant bike with good Campagnolo components.
Autobahn
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